Romance author Allison Speka joins the pod to discuss her journey into writing and self-publishing. She talks about her love for the romance genre and shares her experience with self-publishing, including tips on cover design, book marketing, and the value of learning from other indie authors. Allison’s newest novel, Love Linked, releases February 5th!

transcript for Good Story Podcast Episode 39: Interview with Allison Speka, Self-Published Romance Author

Mary (00:01):

Hello, this is Mary Kole with The Good Story Podcast, all about the writing life, the publishing life, and everything in between. I want to thank our Good Story Company team. You can learn more about us at goodstorycompany.com, and I'm thrilled to bring you today's show. Here's to a good story.

Welcome to The Good Story podcast. My name is Mary Kole, and with me today I have romance author Allison Speka. And Allison, would you like to introduce yourself to our audience?

Allison (00:38):

Thank you. I'm really excited to be here. Like you said, my name's Allison Speka. I am brand new to being an author. I just started self-publishing my romance novels earlier this year (note: this episode was recorded in 2023). My first one came out in January and my second one came out in April. And then I've got an upcoming release late August. I've always loved romance as a genre, my whole life it's been probably my favorite genre, so it was kind of an easy pick as far as picking what I was going to write in. And then writing's kind of always been a part of my life too. I was that kid writing chapter books and then forcing my mom to go to Kinko's and get them bound for me, and then I would give them away as Christmas presents to my family, whether they wanted them or not. So yeah, I've always loved writing for as long as I can remember.

(01:28):

I definitely fell off in college and when I was first starting my career, and then I think I picked it back up during the pandemic. I think a lot of us were probably looking for hobbies and things to do during that time. And I think during that time I really realized I wasn't passionate about anything in my life. I was the kind of person that was always picking up new hobbies and then dropping them and constantly soul searching, I guess. And that's kind of when I really picked up writing again and writing a book specifically was something I always dreamed of doing. I always used to write short stories. I used to write a lot of fan fiction in high school, but it just always felt so unachievable to write a book. I never thought it was something I'd be able to do. I would write chapters, I would start books, and then I would just set it aside and not finish it. And then during that time, I discovered a method of writing that really worked for me and was able to write my first book. It was definitely, definitely a learning curve. It wasn't smooth sailing from the time I just started writing it. I actually ended up—

Mary (02:33):

It never is. The dream of writing a book is the smoothest part of actually writing a book.

Allison (02:38):

So true. Yeah. I wrote my whole first draft as a single POV novel and then decided, Hey, I think this would be better dual POV. So I rewrote, redrafted it all. But yeah, I really just enjoyed the process of writing it. And I also discovered self-publishing during that time and watched a lot of videos on self-publishing. And because I started writing it and I wasn't really sure what I was going to do with it, I was just happy I was writing it. And then after researching self-publishing, it felt like something that really resonated with me and something that I could do. So yeah, I went ahead and went forward with it, and I haven't looked back. It's been a lot of fun. It's been really a journey of trial and error and it's been really humbling. But yeah, no, overall I'm just really appreciative and happy to be finally pouring myself into something I love doing.

Mary (03:30):

So I have a lot of questions, which is exactly why we are chatting. So let's start, you always were writing, you were reading, you read a lot of romance and you've always had an interest in books and writing. You wanted to do something more self-actualized because the day job wasn't quite lighting your fire anymore. So when did you sort of decide that self-publishing was what attracted to you? Sorry. What attracted you to how you would put a book out there? Did you look at traditional and you were kind of like, eh, I'm not quite sure about this. Did you go right to self-publishing? What was that entry point into … We'll talk about the books of course and shaping them, but how did you decide on a path?

Allison (04:30):

I definitely did not even look into traditional publishing, and I honestly want to give your podcast a shout out. I was binging some of your episodes just after you asked me to be on it in preparation, and they're so fascinating. It's so awesome to hear about all of these author's journeys and just hear more about the traditional publishing process cause it’s really not something I'm familiar with at all. I know the basics of you write your query letter and you look for an agent and then you try to get a publisher—

Mary (05:00):

They cry a lot in there somewhere.

Allison (05:05):

Right, right. And yeah, it's really interesting, fascinating process. I think for me, gosh, I was thinking about this the other day. I cannot remember when I first heard the term self-publishing or what. I think I'm a big KU reader, I'm always on Kindle Unlimited, and I knew that a lot of what I was reading on KU was self-published, but I never thought more about it than that. And then I think I was probably scrolling TikTok or doing something and saw a video about self-publishing, and I think that's probably when it clicked. And I started viewing more and more videos and I think it just really resonated with me. Like I said, I used to write a lot of fan fiction, which is just me writing a Word document and then posting it on a forum for the world to read. So I think it kind of felt like a natural transition to me to self-publish.

(05:55):

And yeah, I think when I get an idea in my head sometimes I just, for better or worse, just have to run with it. Maybe I could have thought it through more thoroughly and looked into all of the publishing options, but I think just from hearing what a lot of authors have to say, there's obviously pros and cons to both journeys that you can take. I think in the last five years or so, self-publishing has really taken off as being a legitimate option if you take it seriously and really put the work in. So yeah, no, I think it's been a good journey for me. It's a lot of work. I'm sure everything is a lot of work, but it's tough because you write your book and you think great, but then you also have to market it and you also have to figure out editing and figure out cover design and just do all of the stuff by yourself. And I think there's also a little bit of the imposter syndrome type of thing coming in with self-publishing because nobody told me that this book was good enough to publish except for me, I'm like, I'm going to put this out here because I believe in it.

(07:02):

But I hear so many authors that say they tried to be traditionally published for years and then ended up self-publishing and actually finding success in that. So I think there's clearly, maybe you don't have the right query letter. Maybe for whatever reason you couldn't get that traditional publishing deal doesn't necessarily mean your book's not worth reading or that it's not going to resonate with someone. Yeah, no, long-winded answer to say that I never did look into traditional publishing. I'm still curious about it though. Maybe one day. I've always thought I have a fantasy series in me, and maybe that's something I could pursue traditional publishing one day. It definitely is fascinating. The more I was listening to your podcast and your other guests, I was like, wow, traditional publishing is fascinating. I want to learn more about it.

Mary (07:48):

So it does sound like you are able to sort of figure it out. And like you were saying, there's a lot to figure out. So was there, you said learning curve. Absolutely. And we'll talk about the writing learning curve too, but are there resources that you, because you're right, self-publishing has become not only more legitimate, but the tools are better than ever and the resources available are better than ever, and you have access, there are pros and cons. Well, with indie, you have access to data and the ability to advertise more easily and you are fully in control. Sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes that's a bad thing, right? Because you are the final check and balance for everything, but it's a lot to learn. You're not just figuring out the novel piece, which is hard enough in and of itself. You're also the marketer, which to a lot of writers is sort of the opposite skillset of going into your imagination and creating something.

(08:57):

You're a cover designer or a person who is hiring a cover designer or whatever the case may be. You're writing marketing copy, you're generating a readership, an email newsletter. And yes, traditionally published writers have to do all this stuff, but with a publisher, they're theoretically putting your book out into distribution. People are going to stumble across your book more easily, theoretically. Again, when you're traditionally published and when you're indie published, every sale, at least at first until you build some momentum, has your fingerprints all over it. And a lot of people, they don't quite realize how hard they have to work to move that needle, at least initially. So it's a lot to learn. And for somebody who's interested in indie publishing, can you just tell me how you eat an elephant one bite at a time, but it's still an elephant. So how did you approach this giant new world?

Allison (09:58):

Definitely. I think the community of indie authors is a really generous one. There's so many people creating YouTube content and Instagram content, TikTok content, all this content that I was able to consume to kind of get started. There are courses out there, self-publishing courses, and I have taken some of them, but I don't know with those, I just always kind of got a stink of a get rich quick type of spiel. It didn't really feel like an authentic course. I much preferred hearing the advice from other indie authors like me that weren't trying to sell it on this massive scale that were just talking about their personal experiences. So that's really where I gained all of my knowledge, was just hearing what other authors did. And I have a TikTok account too, where I share a lot of my journey and what I've learned. And I mean, the whole reason I started doing that, and I always preface every video I make with, I'm not an expert, but this is just what I did and I'm just doing it because I also want to give back.

(11:07):

I'm like, I know how valuable I found these videos when I was just getting started. So even though I don't have it all figured out, I should put what I have out there. And even mistakes that I've made put that out there because it's going to help someone. So yeah, there's so much great content out there. It is tough. There are a few great videos that people have made that kind of talk you through high level everything that you need to do. I think that's the biggest challenge at first is, okay, I have this Word document, but what do I do with it? How does it get formatted was something I never even thought about. The fact that my document isn't a book yet. It needs to be formatted. So it's stuff like that that if you aren't familiar with the publishing industry, you just don't even think about needing to know.

(11:51):

So I was able to find a few of those good high level videos that kind of walk you through high level what the steps are, and then you can really dive into each of those steps to learn, okay, well, how do I format a book? Can I buy a software or what do I need to do there? How do I hire an editor? How do I find a book cover designer? How do I design my own cover? I did design my own cover for my second book, but yeah, no, it's just a lot to figure out. A lot of hours. I can't exaggerate how many hours I've spent. It's definitely not, it's crazy too, some people will comment on my TikTok videos that I make clearly thinking that self-publishing is a way to get rich quick. And I'm like, no, you are not going the right route for this. This is purely a project of passion. It would be amazing to make a living as an author one day. I think obviously that's every author's dream, but I think if you're not starting it from a place of it's something that you really love and something that you want to do and you want to connect with readers, you're probably going to be disappointed.

Mary (12:57):

Yeah, I mean, one of the questions that I get quite frequently from novel writers specifically is they're itching to go on submission. They want to know, is this boondoggle going to pay off whatever? And they're like, you mean I have to write the entire book before I can submit it? What happened to proposals and all of this stuff? And it's like, well, yeah, if you wanted this to be easy, if you wanted it to be quick, if you wanted to just make a pile of money, novel writing is not the best vehicle to achieve those three things. And especially with, like you were saying, all of the skill sets, the disparate skill sets involved in publishing, you now have to learn all of those. When you publish for yourself, and a publishing company has different people in different departments doing all of these things, but you are sitting here, you're learning all of these things, you're pulling them together, you take this overview approach, and then you drill down into each of the different disciplines that you'll have to hone for yourself.

(14:11):

It is not, there are people who, and it's funny that you got your start in fanfiction. I feel like a lot of people who are used to just putting work out there and writing and immediately sort of connecting their writing to their readership with Wattpad or whatever forum that they're writing in, I feel like I hear that story quite a bit in indie publishing. But it's like, there's so much to unpack there, and if you don't learn how to do it, the strategies are available, but you still have to string them together on your own. That is not an easy process. That's a process that you have to keep iterating constantly. Like you say, you make mistakes, you learn from them. The great thing is that you're in total control. So if you make a mistake with your formatting or whatever, there are levers that you can pull to either fix it easily or not make that same mistake next time. But it's still, it is a labor of love. And I think that the joy of learning, the joy of the process, the joy of the writing, maybe the begrudging joy of the marketing,

Allison (15:29):

Begrudging, keyword.

Mary (15:31):

Begrudging marketing, all of those things are the work. The work isn't just getting to put author on your business card or whatever, hold the book in your hand. That's one moment of much larger tapestry of a lot of work.

Allison (15:49):

Yeah, definitely. And I think something that I guess keeps me going and does feel good in a sense is that I'm building something that is constantly being built on top of each other, right? It's like just because I released my first book and it's not an instant bestseller, and hundreds and thousands of people haven't read it yet, doesn't mean someone could rediscover that book five, ten years from now. Who knows? You never know what book could expand your reader base enough, and then they go back in and read your backlog. So I think that's also something I really love about reading and being an author, is the fact that you're creating something that is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. Someone could find this five, ten years from now. So I think that's something that definitely excites me. And I think you said earlier how every single sale has my fingerprints on it or something like that.

(16:44):

And it's so true. I remember getting my first sale on KDP or the first day that I made $10, and I was like, oh my God, I've made it. The feeling won't get any better than this. But yeah, I think that's part of it, it's exciting. If I was just in this to get rich quick, I would already be disappointed and upset. So I think it's good that every time a reader reaches out to me on TikTok or says that they like my book, it's just such a great feeling. It doesn't matter that I'm not a bestselling author, and obviously I'm so new in this journey to be making these comments. I know there's people that have been trudging for decades that made me feel differently. But no, I feel just excited right now. I'm so new in this journey and it feels so good to have reader base and get feedback on my books and put my work out there. It just feels really good right now.

Mary (17:40):

No, and I think that catching somebody while they're getting started and ramping up is a valuable perspective because if I'm only talking to people who have already done it all, they're jaded, they got the postcard, whatever, that is one perspective, but somebody who's in the middle of their big release year, their first year really putting the pedal to the metal, that's a really exciting place to be. And yeah, I want to hear from somebody who has pulled the trigger and has some skin in the game and some experience under their belts, but is only branching out and getting started. And I love your point about your backlist is always going to be there. One thing that I think is really interesting about indie versus trad or traditional is you don't have a gatekeeper, and this is kind of the next big thing I want to talk about. You don't have a gatekeeper telling you we can't do a sequel for that. A prequel, who do you think you are?

(18:49):

You can always go back to, let's say TikTok stumbles over one of your books and it unexpectedly pops. You can go back to that world to those characters. You can do a lead magnet, you can do a prequel, you can do special content, and you just have a lot more sort of, you're the stakeholder, you and your readers. And so that's a much more direct conversation. And there's nobody, no agent, no editor, no publisher kind of giving you the green light or the red light in that conversation. And it can be its own more intimate relationship.

Allison (19:26):

Yeah, no, I think that's definitely, now that I'm in a place where I've learned a little bit more about traditional publishing versus self-publishing, I think, and that's probably why the reason that I subconsciously picked self-publishing in the first place was that I like control. I was used to that feeling of writing a document, putting it out there immediately without anything in my way. I was used to that instant gratification, so that is probably why I went this route. And so I imagine that would be a really frustrating experience to have these ideas and want to write these ideas, but kind of having this gatekeeper telling you what you can and can't write, or if you wanted to do a re-release or something like new covers and new marketing and breathing a fresh breath of life into your series, it's nice to have that control to be able to do that at any time.

(20:17):

My cover designs, for instance, I really like my cover designs right now, but who knows when that style will be outdated. I like that I can just go in and it's as simple as uploading a file to update that cover so it feels good. Or if I have a marketing idea that I want to try out, I can just go do it immediately. I don't have anyone telling me that I can't do something. So I really do— as hard as it is, having, I guess to work at every facet of this business, it is nice and valuable to have that control. And my next book, for instance that I'm writing, it's a sequel off of my first book. Did anyone ask me to write a sequel off my first book? No. Do I have the audience maybe to write a sequel for my first book? Probably not, but I don't care. It was the book that I wanted to write. One of the characters really resonated with me, and I just really wanted to tell his story next. And I was like, I'm just going to do it. And yeah, it feels good. And it feels like energizing, I guess, to be able to just write whatever I want to write.

Mary (21:19):

I love that. And going to your cover design, I was really struck by your covers. I think they are beautiful. In this game, people a hundred percent judge by covers, and that old adage does not apply to books at all, which is funny. And if they made me think, Hey, somebody over there knows what they're doing, or if you hired somebody, you have that eye, you are able to sort of see what's contemporary. You were saying on KU, you just kind of flick through and it doesn't really matter whose name is on the spine. If there's a publisher name, a little emblem that kind of levels the playing field without this legitimizing stamp of Harper Collins on the book, and in KU, you can and in the Kindle store as well, it almost matters less. But then these elements of cover design of the quality of the storytelling, the manuscript, the editing, all of these things, they really do kind of make or break you because those reviews are going to be out there and that star rating is going to be there.

(22:31):

And that's a big factor in terms of whether people will check you out, whether people will, I don't know if you're enrolled in KU yourself, whether they'll give you the read, right? Because there is such an influx of books that are self-published of varying quality. It used to be there used to be much more of a taboo around it because of the overall poor quality. But when somebody is indie publishing and they're doing it well, and they're doing it with careful attention to all of the details, that is a rising tide that lifts all boats. And so when I saw your covers, I was like, wow, you could have fooled me that this is an indie enterprise. Can you tell me about what that thought process was? First of all, did you hire somebody? You obviously have to tell somebody what to do. So how did you put that together?

Allison (23:33):

No, first of all, I really appreciate that comment. I put a lot of thought and care into picking my covers, and I really appreciate everything you just said about I guess fooling you into thinking it wasn't an indie enterprise in a sense, because that was really my goal when I self-published. I love that self-publishing makes it so accessible, but I wanted everything that I was doing to look and feel as professional as possible. I wouldn't want someone picking it up necessarily to know that it was independently published. I would want to want them to think that a lot of work went into it, because a lot of work did go into it.

Mary (24:09):

Exactly.

Allison (24:11):

But yeah, so as far as my covers went, I did hire someone for my first one. Are you familiar with Reedsy, the website Reedsy?

Mary (24:18):

Yep. It's a marketplace of vetted professionals where you can do cobble together services, like design, editing, layout, all of these various things.

Allison (24:30):

Exactly. So I went ahead and I actually hired an editor and a cover designer through Reedsy. For my first cover, which was Comfort Zoned. I knew the colors that I wanted. I knew what I wanted the fonts look like. I knew I wanted the city, so I very much had that whole cover in my mind. I just kind of did a poor job of mapping it all out with the city skyline and the characters sitting on the letters and stuff. So that was all the idea that I had in my head. And then she was great, and she produced exactly what I was looking for. So that was a really great experience. With my next book, I did get laid off. I was working at a tech startup, and I don't know if probably totally out of your realm or your world.

Mary (25:18):

I grew up in Silicon Valley and left the tech startup to go into publishing, for the money as we've been talking about.

Allison (25:26):

For the money.

Mary (25:27):

But seriously, I kind of really resonated with the point you made earlier about something lasting, books being something lasting because I was working, this was during the era of in Facebook games. Remember? Like Farmville?

Allison (25:42):

Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh.

Mary (25:44):

So we were doing games within Facebook, not even on our own platform, within somebody else's platform. And one day the game we were working on was just killed. And any day Facebook could pull the plug on the games if they decided to go a different direction. And so it was all just nothing like a year of my life and the game was killed, and I was like, I'm going to go into books because they're lasting and beautiful. And so actually, previous life. But yeah, so you got laid off. Unfortunately in this kind of big round of tech layoffs.

Allison (26:20):

Tons of tech layoffs going on right now, it's really hard to find. I have been searching for a new job, but it's just really tough out there right now. Thankfully, I'm really lucky. I have savings and a really supportive partner. So it's not like I'm in a dire situation by any means, but certainly not a lot of extra spending money to be pouring into my passion projects. So the second time around, I did not have the disposable income to hire a professional cover designer, so I had to figure it out myself. And if you have any interest, you can look through my tiktoks. I have one where I was kind of showing the evolution of my cover design because I was so bad when I was first starting off. It was a hard learning curve to learn how to, and this is coming from someone— I took a ton of art classes in high school and college, always was interested in digital art. It's hard. Graphic design is hard because it's not just making a pretty image, the composition. It's tough to get the composition right. It's tough to pick the right font. There's a lot more that goes into it. And I want to say all this too, because some people I feel like out there are like, I can just go design my own covers and you don't need to hire a graphic designer. And I'm like, no. I just spent hundreds of hours to try to become as close to a graphic designer as I could become. I definitely don't think someone should just go out and design their own cover.

(27:42):

I think that's the most important thing you could do is have a professional looking cover and edit. But anyways, I really took the time and now I feel very confident in my cover design skills. I designed my next one as well, and I'm really excited with how it turned out. So now I feel really good and comfortable with my cover design skills.

Mary:

That's amazing.

Allison:

Thank you. Yeah, no, and honestly, I love doing it. It's really fun, and I've always loved art, so it's been fun to get back into it. But that's just another reason why I kind of love that I chose the self-publishing journey because mean, maybe I'm wrong, I imagine not a lot of traditionally published authors get to explore designing their recovers mean maybe, but probably not ones with no experience.

Mary (28:27):

Not as a debut. And even there is very little kind of input accepted or taken very seriously. They'll read your email about your cover ideas, but titles, covers, a lot of this stuff is just very, very out of the writer's hands. Unless they're a name and are really, really passionate about a certain thing, then maybe the publisher will allow them a little bit more creative control. But nothing like what you're talking about.

Allison (29:04):

And I love cover design. I think it's so interesting. I think you mentioned before picking the right cover or we were talking about picking something, I guess genre appropriate. And I think for me it's like, it is interesting because even designing my own covers, I only have a certain level of control. I need to pick something that's very obviously genre appropriate. And if you're browsing through KU, there's really only a couple of options, two that I can think of. There's the shirtless guy on the cover, or yeah, shirtless guy, or there's kind of this illustrated cutesy cover. And my books are not heavy on the smut, which I love a good smutty book. Every once in a while they're fun, they can be really engaging, but that's not what my books are. So I felt the illustrated design was a little bit more appropriate to what my reader, a reader can expect when they open my book. So yeah, that's kind of the route that I went. But yeah, I like that I have the option though. If the illustrations ever go out of style or something—

Mary (30:12):

And I hope they will. There's so many beautiful illustrated covers, whatever, but every cover, every single cover now. And I'm like, can we rub two brain cells together and come up with another trend please?

Allison (30:28):

I feel like … go ahead.

Mary (30:30):

Well, what I was going to call out to listeners is that you did your research, right? So romance obviously very trope heavy, a lot of genre expectations in that one that you wouldn't have in just contemporary realistic or whatever literary novel, you are sort of in a category. And for some people a category can be restrictive, but for the people that really thrive, I feel in genre fiction, those expectations, those tropes subverting them, playing with them, toeing that line can actually be really fun and creative and a way to express your individuality, not just tick boxes. And so you looked at what was out there, you understood what it conveyed to readers, and you made an intentional choice based on the type of story that you were telling and the kind of reader that you wanted to attract and all of this thought process. And yes, marketing went into how you approach your covers, which is just, I don't know if it is your own marketing experience or your own savvy or what you learned or some magic alchemy of all of the above, but that is an amazing example of how to intentionally approach indie publishing.

Allison (31:59):

No, I really appreciate that. I do not have any marketing experience. I think I read a lot, so I see what's out there. I think also, maybe you can relate to this, but just kind of working at tech startups, it kind of gives you a little bit of, I don't know, gumption or whatever the right word is, but very much you're at a small company and you realize that if you don't do something, it's not getting done type of attitude. So I think all those experiences working at a tech startup really helped me, I guess launch this business. It really is like a business because writing is such a small part of what's going on, I guess. It's definitely been a tough learning curve. I think the marketing specifically trying to get a reader base and stuff has been definitely the toughest, toughest learning curve I feel like as far as all this goes, I think picking the cover was tough. Like you said, it definitely a lot of thought went into it, but at the same time, I’m reading constantly, I just inhale romance novels.

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Allison (34:08):

Oh, I wanted to talk, I really liked what you said earlier about playing with tropes and taking them and making it, putting your individual spin on it.

Mary (34:16):

We’ve got to talk about the books themselves and the craft of the books at some point!

Allison (34:22):

Well, it's definitely what I was shooting to do, right? Because I love Romance, I love it as a genre. I think they can be really fun. I think romance especially is a good form of escapism. I think as a genre it's really about escapism. And something that would frustrate me is I love a good trope, enemies to lovers, for instance, favorite trope, love it. But I was getting frustrated with a lot of the books out there, just no good reason for them to be enemies. They're just enemies for no reason or there's no thought as far as character development goes. And it was kind of frustrating me because I'm like, I want to read these tropes, I enjoy these tropes, but can just some thought be put into some character development? So I feel like that's really what kind of got me started and why I wanted to start writing was I was like, my second book, for instance, is an enemies to lovers, but my goal with it was for it to be actually realistic, actually give them a reason not to like each other. And I think it's really fun. I think personally, I love tropes and I think it's always a fun starting point. That’s honestly usually where I start my process, is I pick a trope that I think would be fun to dive into, and I think about how I can take my own life experiences or how I can make the characters more relatable and make it more than just a trope, with characters that you actually care about, I guess.

Mary (35:50):

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think Enemies to Lovers is my least favorite trope for that exact reason.

Allison (35:59):

I don't believe you.

Mary (36:00):

So you're like, yeah, I see the problem with it. I'm going to fix it. I see the problem and I just want to throw it across the room because I am thinking of a novel which will remain nameless, that is traditionally published, sold really well as far as I know, where it's like he literally gave the character the stink eye across the room 10 years ago, and she has been nursing this grudge and is convinced that he hated her. And it was literally something was in his eye and he doesn't even remember. And she's like, no, you hate me. And he's like, what? And I'm like, you guys could have had this conversation about 200 pages ago. But it sounds like very much your process is rolling up your sleeves and being like, I can improve on that. I can learn that. I can improve on that. So you start with a trope and how do you turn it into a story? What is your writing process?

Allison (37:04):

So I talked a little bit earlier about how I thought I could never write a book as much as I wanted to. It seems so unachievable. And have you heard of the Snowflake method? Yes. So I stumbled across that website, the Snowflake website, and it's funny, so not an appealing website at all, it's just very, it looks like they made it in the nineties and haven't touched it.

Mary (37:27):

Thank you for saying that because whenever I hear about the Snowflake method, I picture the cover and I kind of cringe, and then the website is, but you know what? Beautiful websites are not generally in publishing's wheelhouse, so a lot of these places you got to deal with a clunky website. But anyway, it sounds like the method itself, if not the presentation of the method was useful.

Allison (37:53):

Yes. Because basically how it starts out is you first, you start out with, and I think he even breaks it down into like, oh, your first week you're just going to write a sentence and that sentence is going to be the highest crux of your book. And then the second week you're going to take that sentence and turn into a paragraph, and then the third week you're going to expand that paragraph into a page and then you're going to expand that page. So it's just all about slowly building. And something about that really resonated with me. Maybe it's the data analyst in me, but it just seeing it structured, that just really woke something up within me and I was like, oh, I can do this. This is achievable. And so that really changed the game for me. I'm a huge outliner. I know the term planner versus pantser, and some people hate outlining and they think they could never do it, and I totally, totally get it. I'm amazed by people that can just fly by the seat of their pants. For me, outlining is everything.

Mary (38:53):

Okay, here's the secret, but pantsers do a lot of revision. So what do you hate more outlining or revision? Pick your poison.

Allison (39:05):

I love outlining, so I make mine really detailed. They're pretty long outlines. I get it to a point where it's like every single chapter, I have a bullet point for it and then a brief description of what I want in that chapter. Obviously there's a couple steps. I start out with all of my acts, so beginning, inciting incident, main conflict, resolution. So I kind of start out really high level that, and then I go ahead and break it down into subplots and what I want every chapter to have. And that doesn't mean I don't revise, because usually when I start writing, I don't feel connected to my characters. And with my last book, for instance, I ended up having to go back and rewrite my lead female character. She just became something totally different in my head. So it's not like just because I'm outlining I'm not going back and letting the story take me places.

(39:57):

It totally, totally still does, but just having that initial thing to work off of is just a complete game changer for me. And also it just keeps me motivated, because I stick to a pretty strict writing schedule. I'm writing my fourth novel right now, and I like to do, I used to love R.L. Stein growing up. Like Fear Street books was my jam. And I read somewhere that he writes 2000 words a day, so I'm like, okay, I got to write 2000 words a day cause R.L. Stein said he wrote 2000 words a day. So that's the schedule that I stick to. When I was working, I just woke up early and cranked it out. Now I just kind of do it throughout the day, but 2000 words is, it's crazy because it doesn't seem like it's that hard. 2000 words, right? Yeah, you could do it in 30 minutes, but it's just getting nothing to something is exhausting.

(40:54):

So I forced myself to do it every day. It doesn't always feel the best. Today, I was just really struggling to get anything on the page, and I talk about this all the time, and I'm like, sometimes it's just more important that you just write. I will write the worst sentences sometimes, just like, He walked into the store, then he saw her from a distance, they got together, they started— I will just write, just brain vomit, all of that stuff down, like, at least it's something I can go back and fix this later on. The hardest part is getting the story to formulate in a cohesive way on the page. I think that for me is the hardest part and why people say they struggle with writer's block and stuff, but it's like, don't worry. I always say this, just don't worry if it sounds terrible. Just get something on the page and then you can fix it later. But it's so hard sometimes to just get something on the page.

Mary (41:48):

Absolutely. And so I do want to call listener attention to the fact that you released your first book in January and then something April, maybe one is coming in August and you're working on your fourth one. So the speed here, this has not been a very slow process, and I think part of it is because you do stick to kind of a minimum daily word count. Part of it is because you have some time on your hands right now, but that kind of production schedule would never be available to you in the traditional world. Are you consciously doing a more, not rapid release because it's not a series necessarily, but was this an intentional choice to put out a pretty rigorous schedule for yourself?

Allison (42:42):

Gosh, I don't know. I think because sometimes I'm like, why am I doing that? Why am I doing this to myself? I do genuinely enjoy writing. It's funny actually, I think you said earlier, would you rather revise or outline, pick the worst of the two evils, I actually think revising is my favorite part. Not necessarily if I had a bunch of plot holes, maybe. I think the beauty of outlining is that I don't usually have plot holes, but going back and fixing the poor writing and making a paragraph sound as good as it can possibly be, and updating the dialogue, I like doing all of that. It's probably my favorite part because sometimes when you're getting that initial story down, it's just exhausting. It takes a lot out of you. I think when I’m going back and revising and getting to know my characters, I think that part's the most fun. So I think that's part of why I have such a rigorous schedule is because I know that once I get through that, the first draft, I can kind of move on to the fun part.

(43:37):

And I don't know, I just genuinely enjoy it. I don't know. I think part of me, sure, wants a backlog and hopes one of these days one of my books as well. And then that reader will have this whole backlog to look back to. I think for sure I think about that, but I don't know. I’m just enjoying being on this schedule. My books aren't super long. I usually intentionally keep it between 60-70,000 words. That was another thing for me. I don't know if you've noticed the trend in contemporary romance, but there's a lot of 500-600 page contemporary romance novels coming out nowadays.

Mary (44:17):

It's getting out of control. Everybody listening, knock it off, knock it off. Because I would rather fit in more stories in my reading time than more of your story, unless I totally love it. That sounds so nasty. But yeah, no, I was going to say when I started over a decade ago in publishing 50,000 words was a novel, and now it's like, what is this fragment of a novel?

Allison (44:46):

It’s like a short story.

Mary (44:49):

Yeah! But still 60 to 70,000 words. While I think that is a perfectly respectable length for a novel, it is impressive that you have now done four of these things in ever since you started. Now I know you didn't start writing in January, but still, that’s a lot.

Allison (45:10):

Thank you. And I think sometimes I have to remind myself like, oh, it's so cool that I've written three books. I mean, my third one's not out yet, but I know I have to remind myself of that all the time. The kind of person that I'm always thinking about the next goal and thinking about what's next. I'm like, oh, I should really reflect and think about all that I've accomplished so far. But yeah, no, I am intentionally keeping my book shorter. I think it's great. I appreciate when there's a 300 page or less romance book that I can just fly through that still has good characters, and that's the niche that I guess I'm trying to target is people looking for something like that, like a quick read. That's a good escapism that's still well-written and has good characters. And I don't know, I lost my train of thought.

Mary (46:01):

Okay. No, I have, so we kind of kicked off on this note, and so I am kind of circling the airport to bring us in for a landing on a similar note, but you mentioned working with an editor right from Reedsy for your first experience, you are the only person who is standing between you and the publish button, right? The upload finish, complete, publish button. How do you decide when something is done? Do you work with an editor still outside of the first book? Do you have readers that you trust or are you just sort of a self-contained powerhouse and you're like, this feels done. So what's the process of that decision?

Allison (46:51):

I don't think I could ever publish something without having some other people read it. That would be that a certain level of courage that I don't possess. So I don't work with a, I feel like I'm cheating a little bit because I don't necessarily, I feel like when you say that you self edit, people look at you like, oh my god. But I do have an aunt that is a former professional editor and works at a newspaper, so she has looked at both of my past two novels. In addition to that, my mom is always the first person. She is a huge romance reader, is also all over KU. So not only, not only because some people are like, oh my gosh, your mom? But I'm like, I genuinely trust her opinion and she has given me good beta reader feedback too about my last two books. She is reading that genre more than anyone I know, so I trust her opinion when she tells me things. And she'll also shout out any typos.

(47:50):

I usually find beta readers through Facebook groups or TikTok, which is tough. Honestly, beta readers are a bit tough because then you have to decide if you want to incorporate the feedback or not. And sometimes it's like if you don't really see a clear trend, it's like, okay, well was that just one person's opinion or is that something I should really be taking into account? So beta readers can be a bit tough, but it's still good to get outside opinions. And then as far as deciding when to hit done, that's something I struggle with. Honestly. I am rereading my third novel now for, I don't know, the 15th time. It's honestly disgusting how much I reread my own words. I get to the point where I'm like, oh, I thought this was good enough to publish. Oh my god, it's so bad. But it's only because read it dozens of times.

(48:40):

Also I know software cannot do the job of a human at all, but it's still a good first check. I always throw it in there first. Look, yeah, it's good for catching maybe some missing commas and stuff like that, but you still have to go through and check the software. You just have to manually check every single thing, the software outputs because it's not perfect at all. It throws you a bunch of things that are incorrect. So no, I would definitely honestly hire an editor if I had the disposable income, but I just don't right now because it's a lot of work and you would feel a little bit more sense of comfort if a professional is looking at it that I just don't have right now. So that's why I just read it and read it and read it. But you know what, I always tell myself, I'm like, I find typos in even traditionally published works, it happens all the time and all I have to do, if I find one or if someone points it out, I just have to fix it and re-upload that file. It takes less than an hour. So I try to tell myself that too. But yeah, no, it's my nightmare to put out a book and then realize that I missed all of these typos and it's like that dream where you oversleep finals in college or something like that. That's what I have. I put out the draft version of my book or something like that.

Mary (49:56):

The wrong file, dun, dun dun.

Allison (49:58):

Yeah. Oh my God.

Mary (50:00):

I think that is a great point though about the cost of hiring an editor. Hi, I'm an editor. I make my livelihood mostly by editing projects, but it's not always within reach, especially for indie published writers who have to hire a cover designer. You kind of have to cobble together your dream team. And if you are not your own dream team, you team will have to pay a dream team or find beta readers. I think the best thing to pull from your experience, especially with your mom, is that not all beta readers, you can absolutely find ways to get opinions on your manuscript for free, but not every opinion is worth the same amount of weight for you to give it. And some people who don't read romance, for example, I probably wouldn't weigh that feedback very heavily. Now, they may be commenting on something where I'm like, there is something off in that section.

(51:04):

I might not fix it the way they're recommending because who knows? But that section deserves another look. But your mom and I love that you have this relationship with your mom. I think it's just hilarious and lovely. So she blows through romance novels it sounds like pretty much constantly, which I love that life for her. Tell her congratulations. But that is a qualified reader. Yes, she is your mom. She thinks you're wonderful and beautiful, and there is a little bit of, it's hard to be completely objective in a situation like that, but that is one savvy reader that you have to sort of validate your work or not, or give you some feedback. It's not just about finding typos. Of course, software can do that for us. It is about understanding your genre and giving you feedback based on that understanding. And that is worth its weight in gold, especially since you're starting out. You're bootstrapping a lot of things by yourself. I think that's amazing. And a lot of writers, even very experienced trad published writers, do struggle with finding their core, either critique group or an editor relationship or whatever the case may be, because opinions can vary so widely and experience can vary so widely. I think that's great that you've figuring it out.

Allison (52:38):

And that's really all I can do. I would rather if I didn't feel confident that I could do things myself or find people to work with, I wouldn't put out a book unless I was confident that it was as professional as it could be. And I can't stress this enough because I want people to realize that just because a book is indie published doesn't mean that there are indie books out there for sure, that people maybe didn't get edited at all and don't have a professional cover, but there's so many of us out there pouring our heart and souls into this and studying the industry and trying to figure this out. And yeah, I think that a lot of us produce a really professional, good looking result, and I'm really proud of what I've put out there. And I think just because I'm doing it myself and I'm figuring it out, doesn't mean that it's not a good product.

Mary (53:33):

And I think your secret sauce, just from listening to how you are interfacing with this new opportunity that you're giving yourself is just that learning that you said hundreds of hours to get that book cover, hundreds of hours spent trolling Facebook groups and just watching videos and creating videos and interfacing with people who are leaving you comments and interfacing elsewhere with the indie community. And it is without that engine that you have inside of you that drives you to learn this stuff, that sense of internal striving for excellence is what makes you, I look at your website and I'm like, wow, look at this presentation. Look at these covers. You are proving that rising tide of indie books, it keeps rising and rising for a lot of the people getting into it, but it is an insane amount of work.

Allison (54:40):

Yeah, no, I appreciate you saying that, and it's so true. I think, yeah, that could be the biggest misconception about indie publishing is that it's easy just because nobody's telling you no, but it's absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's a lot of work. I guess every dime that I didn't spend on getting outside help I poured into something myself because your time is still valuable, and I've spent, like you said, hundreds of hours of work trying to figure this out the best that I can, and I'm still learning. That's the thing that I look forward to the most, is that I know that I'm going to keep getting better as this journey goes on. And yeah, no, I'm excited to see what the future holds and I am really grateful for self-publishing.

Mary (55:25):

Amazing. Alison Speka, tell us about your upcoming release and give us a little sendoff where we can find you and your books.

Allison (55:37):

So my upcoming release, it's based off of one of the characters in my first novel Comfort Zoned, so definitely check that out if you haven't. He is a up and coming rockstar, and it is a dual POV novel. His love interest is kind of a woman with a little bit of an interesting past, and she's just passing through town, not looking to stay long. She ends up helping out his band with a few things and the two kind of instantly click, and it's just kind of a really fun read about their relationship. It takes place in Chicago. There's a lot of fun Chicago scenes. If anyone out there appreciates a good city romance, there's a lot of them doing a lot of fun things in Chicago. But yeah, that'll be out end of August. And yeah, you can find me on TikTok @AllisonSpeka and also my website, allisonspeka.com.

Mary (56:38):

Amazing. Thank you so much for your time, your insights. I have no doubt that you are going to keep being one to watch and learning more, and yeah, I can't wait to see where you go with it. So thank you so much for coming on, and here's to a good story.

Allison (56:58):

Thanks. I really appreciate it. It was great talking to you.

Mary (57:01):

Likewise. Thanks so much for joining me. This has been a Good Story Podcast with me, Mary Kole. I just want to offer a heartfelt thank you and bit of gratitude to the entire Good Story Company team. You can find out more at goodstorycompany.com. And of course, to all of you listening and taking the time to really dig into these conversations with me, this has been Good Story Podcast, and here's to a good story.

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