Debut picture book author Brittany Thurman discusses writing about complex issues for a young audience, bias in the publishing industry, and supporting Black writers.

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Transcript of Podcast episoDe 10: Interview with Brittany Thurman, Picture Book Author

Mary: Hello, this is Mary Kole and the "Good Story Podcast", helping writers craft a good story. With me, you will hear from thought leaders related to writing and sometimes not about topics important to writers of all categories and ability levels. Here is to telling a good story.

Thank you so much for joining me. This is Mary Kole and the "Good Story Podcast". With me, I am thrilled to have today Brittany Thurman. Brittany is a debut author of a picture book coming out in 2021. She's also here with me to speak about some of the social justice issues going on in our world right now as a black author. So, Brittany, if you would introduce yourself, I would love to introduce you to my audience.

Brittany: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Brittany Thurman. I am the author of "Fly" which, as Mary said, comes out in Fall 2021. "Fly" follows 5-year-old Africa who wants to learn how to double-dutch but she has no idea how to double-dutch. She's never double-dutched in her life, and she ends up asking her friends if they can teach her some skills, which they do. She ends up competing and then I'll let you read the book to find out if she wins or not.

I wrote "Fly" because, as a kid, I suffered from anxiety, and worry, and nerves, and still suffer from that to this day, but I wanted a book that shows kids of all ages, whether they're toddlers, preschoolers, or adults, that it's okay to go for your dreams and your goals even if you don't necessarily know how to get from point A to point B. It's really my ode to me as a kid saying that, if I had done these things, what are the outcomes of me winning or not? Regardless, it would have been okay.

I have worked in early literacy for about five years. I went to Carnegie Mellon University for dramatic writing. You definitely don't have to have an MFA in writing to write. At the time, I wanted to write for the stage and literally, on my graduation day, I kind of didn't want to do that anymore.

Mary: Oh, no. What a day to have that realization.

Brittany: Yes, exactly. Walking across the stage, this is not what I want, but also I learned a lot throughout my program and realized that I really wanted to focus on kids and early literacy. I started working with different organizations that focused on early literacy. I lived in Pittsburgh at the time and worked for the Children's Museum and went to different neighborhoods doing storytimes.

For close to four years, I worked at the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh where I probably read thousands of books to thousands of kids across Pittsburgh. As a child, I always had a book on my shelf. I would read next to my grandmother, and I know that not all kids have that. My goal has always been to of course provide representation within the stories that I write but also to somehow outside of that make sure that kids have access to books.

Mary: You didn't want to just make sure that kids felt represented on the page or just in the quality of what you were writing but that they had the basic access that you did, it sounds like, growing up to books that they may not have had in their homes and communities.

Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. While I was with the library, I created a storytime called Sankofa Storytime that purposefully focused on representation. I went into the Hill District, which is a mostly black neighborhood of Pittsburgh and I would read stories featuring black kids to one of the schools there that had a probably 98% black student population. We would do activities that represented or reflected the books that we read.

Even though there was a library up the street, I realized that not every kid goes to the library. Their parents might not be able to take them. A lot of parents might work two jobs and don't have access to those evening storytimes. I really wanted to supplement what a teacher was doing in a classroom. I know that teachers do what they can but they might not always be able to stop and read a story. They might not always know what story or what new story is out there to read to the kids in the classroom.

That storytime helps me to recognize that this is something that I can do. Even if it's small, hopefully, it's making some bit of a difference. One of my favorite things about the storytimes that I did, I was reading "Crown: An Ode to the Fresh Cut" by Derrick Barnes. There were kids who gravitated around the book and then started telling me about their barbershop experience, how the barber cut their hair, or how it felt when he brushed their hair off their shoulders. It definitely made me recognize representation is important. Even though I already knew that, it helped me to see it first-hand just what a book that truthfully reflects black kids, what it can do for their confidence, their motivation, their self-esteem.

Mary: That's fantastic. So, these kids were able to recognize themselves and see something relatable. You got fired up at that point to write for young kids or you'd already been thinking about it in the process of organizing these storytimes?

Brittany: I have already been thinking about it. I have written several books. It took me a while to really find my genre. I write picture books, middle-grade and young adult. Initially, I was really writing silly, goofy stories, which is fine, because when I would read books like "The Book with No Pictures" to a group of preschoolers, they love that story. I thought that that was what I also needed to write, but then I realized that I wasn't writing the stories that I want to write. I think it's the author that's important. You're writing for kids, but you need to also write what's in your heart.

I found this other avenue that reflected civil rights issues—that was what I was writing initially, reflected present-day issues but then also just in general black kids seeing themselves in a positive light because I don't think that every book needs to focus on social justice or civil rights. It's important to also have books that represent present-day, represent a child going through their everyday life, things they want to do like double-dutch. And so I think that the majority of my books are along those lines of positive, self-esteem, normal, everyday. And then, on the flip side, there are things that crop up like civil rights, social justice, the general issues that we carry within ourselves. I think that it's generational. It kind of comes up in trauma and it's within us all. Sometimes it helps to get that out on the page.

Mary: I want to go back to a point that you made. So, for you, it sounds like...and this maybe comes from you growing up, some of the anxieties that you dealt with just as a human being wanting to put these characters on the page but necessarily make the books "about a civil rights issue", make it kind of an "issue book" for lack of a better word. Can you talk a little bit more about how you find that balance between, yes, addressing social issues, addressing justice issues in work but not making it kind of, "Oh, this is a book about a protest," for example, or this is a book that really kind of makes the social justice issue the subject of the book? I think there's a really big distinction that you bring up.

Brittany: I think that what I've done is of course trying to find that balance. I don't know if I have the exact words for it but one thing that I have been focusing on recently is the trauma and anxiety that kids feel around, for instance, police brutality and what that looks like in the home. So them not necessarily being out at the march or having an encounter with the police but just seeing it on TV, seeing it on their parent's phone, and how they might cope with those things. I think that, when it comes to those social justice issues, that's how I tread. I don't want it to directly be in your face, "This is what happened, and then this is how that kid fixed this huge problem that no one knows the answer to." I want to focus on that child and their mechanism for coping with it. I think everyone deals in different ways. I want to give kids a way of seeing, "Okay, this is how I can deal with it," or for them to come up with their own way of dealing with it.

Mary: I think that's an incredible point because... I work with a lot of picture books in my editing work, and we always get these kinds of...one of the biggest issues I would say is that the child in the book is not allowed to solve their own problems or be proactive enough. That's an easy note to give. I give it a lot in pictures books, especially you want kids to be empowered and to find their own solutions, but what happens when the problem isn't a lost teddy bear as it is in some picture books? What happens when the bigger issue at work really is, as we're finding as a society, kind of this unsolvable thing that we just don't have the answer to yet and we probably won't for some time? How do you put an empowered kid on the page and show them dealing with this when there's not going to be an answer on the final page?

Brittany: Yeah. I think that one thing that, my agent, I've heard her say is putting honesty on the page, making it authentic. I know that right this moment no child has the answer to what's happening, but I know that they are dealing with it in their own way. I think that my job as a writer is to show that honesty and how vulnerable children are. I think that kids, when they read books, when they're being read to, it doesn't have to be in their face. It doesn't have to be pointed out in a certain way. They understand what's happening on the page. They can see an image. They can pick up a clue from one single word. They will automatically know. I think it's about treading especially carefully because you never want to put out something that will harm a child in the future, so I think it's about treading very carefully around the subject, too.

Mary: What would be an example of something that you believe might be ultimately harmful to say or convey to this audience if you have anything off the top of your head?

Brittany: I think that this might also go into writing outside of your identity. I think that sometimes of course, when you have a book that is written by someone that isn't of that particular background, then that's where harm comes in when that research isn't done or when it's not done in a very authentic way.

Mary: It's a tough one. The real question that people in publishing have been asking, a lot of readers, a lot of writers, and a lot of people within the publishing industry responsible for bringing these books to market have been asking is, on the one hand, there are people who say you are not going to do a completely authentic job writing outside of your lived experience.

I actually had a guest on this podcast, a white writer, who had chosen to put a Hispanic character on the page in Southern California. He had a beta reader question it or his editor rather and questioned whether the cultural portrayal was deep enough. He realized that, in a couple hours, he could remove all of the details pretty easily that he had put in there to "make this character Hispanic".

He realized that, "Okay, I'm not doing the cultural element justice here, and I need to step aside."

That's the one hand of the argument. The other hand of the argument is the people who say we write fiction to step into the shoes of others. That's just writing. That's reading. There are people who say that, if we all stay in our lane, then the white writers are just going to write white characters and the black writers are just going to write black characters. Won't that be its own homogenous publishing landscape?

You're saying that, especially when writing for younger readers, there could be some potential harm when somebody doesn't do a character portrayal justice or they step into another culture without the richness, or the authenticity, or the nuance, or the understanding to put that character on the page. Is that what I'm hearing?

Brittany: Yeah. I think that kids are impressionable. I know that picture books, it's not rocket science. We're not doing brain surgery, but when a young kid hears something, reads something, sees something that they take for the truth, I think they carry those things with them throughout their life. Something simple as having a story authentically told to the best of that writer's ability with honesty and truthfulness can help eliminate that harm that could possibly be done.

Also, I very much feel that I'm appreciative of people who do take that step back. A while ago, I wanted to write a story on a teenager who is autistic because, at the time, I was going into an autism support classroom. I was spending time with the students in that classroom, and I thought that I understand them and knew them. About three chapters in, I stopped because I realized that I could never do that story justice or that child justice in that there is a child out there who can write this story much better than I can.

I think that people need to also recognize that. There are simple things you can do of course to continue to write that story. You can have a sensitivity reader but it's extremely important to make sure that you take that step back to think and reflect, especially because as a black writer, my stories have been pushed aside so much. When I mean "my", I mean a lot of black writer stories have been not accepted in publishing because the editor says they can't relate to it or it's not marketable. I think that it's important to recognize that we have stories to tell and those stories aren't being accepted.

Mary: I think you make some really, really good points, and also what I'm hearing is just your sense of responsibility for putting something on the page of value and something true and something honest for young readers. Like you said, young kids, especially at the picture book age, are going to be very impressionable and some of the things that you say for better or for worse may stick with them for the rest of their lives, right? I mean that is a big weight of responsibility that writers for this age group carry. Not that adult fiction doesn't matter or fiction for older readers doesn't matter but, in picture book...and you say picture books aren't rocket science but, at the same time, a good picture book, writers will say to me like, "Oh, it's only 600 words. How hard could it be?" But a good picture book is actually just a work of art. They are so difficult to do well and so there is this weight of responsibility. There is this burden on your shoulders when you only have 600 words to say something.

Brittany: I know we probably all love Jacqueline Woodson. Whenever I think about "Each Kindness", that's how I feel that that is a work of art. It's a certain amount of words but, within those words, there is so much that I had taken back from just reading it once. I'm always trying to figure out, I guess, the formula for writing a picture book, which there is no formula. How can I strive for that level of brilliance and greatness and authenticity and truthfulness? And then also speaking of "Each Kindness", I think that's another book that reflects the world that we can be so wrapped up in our own little world and not recognize how we treat others. I'm very much [inaudible 00:19:52] that "Each Kindness" should be recommended reading for every person on this Earth.

Mary: That is a tall recommendation but I think I agree with you. I want to go back to the publishing discussion because I think that is going to be a pretty important part of our talk today and you definitely have a lot of things to say there. But when you initially wrote into me, one thing that struck me and I'm only going to say one thing that you said, you said, "I have always thought of my life as political." So when we talk about not only bringing some of these issues to the page but what social issues and being a black woman, a black writer means to you on and off the page, can you speak to me a little bit more about your philosophy and experience as a creator?

Brittany: Of course, first, I am a black woman when I wake up. If you remove the writer part of me, that is always who I am. I think that, when I get up and go about my day where I put a smile on my face, when I wear my hair how I want to wear my hair, I'm making a political statement. I'm saying that I'm not going to let the past or the present define me, that I have every right to be this person that I have been created to be. I also feel that when I write stories, whether those stories are featuring social justice issues or when they're featuring black kids who just want to be kids, that that's a political statement, too, because it's showing us as human. At the end of the day, that is who we are. I think that it's important to put those social justice issues in books but it's just as important to show the child as whole and as human as possible and without the weight of the past on their shoulders.

My life, every step that I take, is a statement saying that I'm not going to be defined by the image that has been placed on me.

Mary: I think that's a really, really good point and could go back to publishing, which we will in just a second. I feel like there are a lot of people out there right now who are saying, "As a black individual, it's not my job to be whatever your image of the black experience or the black identity is. It's not my responsibility to teach you about these issues." I think what you're saying is that sometimes we just want to see black kids on the page being themselves without this additional layer of responsibility.

Brittany: Yeah. I always think back to the books I read as a child and one book was Abi Walker. I loved Abi Walker. I still love Abi Walker. We have very similar features, family structure, and of course that ancestry as well. But as I got older, literally about 5 years ago, I thought: why was Abi Walker this one book that was placed in my hands? There were other books out there like Mildred Taylor's "Roll of Thunder" or Sharon Flake's "The Skin I'm In" but I didn't have access to those books. As I grew up, I wanted to analyze why this particular book was placed in my hand because, as a kid, I thought that my only narrative in literature was slavery or the civil rights movement. I didn't have books that featured a black girl or a black kid just going through everyday life.

As a child, I wanted be an astronaut, and I think that I would probably be an astronaut right now if I had that book placed in my hand. I think that is so important for us to have that equal amount of books that feature the past in history because that's vitally important. It's important for us to reflect on the past. It's important for other people to see and hear what has happened in the past so that it is not repeated but we know that that eventually is repeated over again.

But then on the flip side, it's so important to also have those books that are just kids being kids because, at the end of the day, when a kid walks in a library, they look for themselves or look for another experience outside of themselves. It's important to have an equal amount of those books.

Mary: I think that's a really good point, and it goes back to this idea of, yes, we absolutely need to acknowledge what has happened, the reasons for the injustices that we have in our present world, talking about the past to make sure that, as a human race, we don't do this again. But at the same time, your experience growing up and wanting to see characters like yourself, living normal lives and not necessarily bearing this weight of all of history on your shoulders, I really like that you strive to just put regular kids on the page.

Now, you are being published for a picture book. You write picture book, but you also mentioned also writing middle-grade and young adults. Does your position change? Do you deal with more nuanced and maybe complicated emotions as your characters get older? Do you have any kind of insight into how maybe your approach changes or doesn't as we can get into more nuanced with slightly older readers?

Brittany: I think that it definitely gets more complex when you write for older readers. Of course, my middle-grade and young adult haven't been published yet but both of the topics that I have in my middle-grade and young adult are complex. I think it's because, for one, for older readers, I gravitate towards topics that aren't necessarily being told at the moment in publishing but that I know exists in the world. They're the topics that we avoid.

For instance, news about... Sorry, I actually don't want to say what it is I'm writing.

Mary: Oh, sure. I completely understand. You don't have to scoop yourself. These are books that aren't under a contract yet, but it sounds like you are dealing with things that are current, things that are timely, things that are going on in our world, and you're able to explore it maybe with a little bit more of a realistic slant with a little bit more understanding and conflict around them because the readers that you target in middle-grade are 9, 10, 11, 12 or so and older than that from a young adult. Do you think that part of your commitment to being authentic, telling the truth, representing the world as is, it honors an older kid's understanding of the issues as they grow up?

Brittany: I know that once I was told that our readers are smart. Sometimes we can think that kids are not aware or not savvy to things, but I never want to dumb down the words on a page because my readers are complex. They're smart, educated children no matter who they are, and so I want to make sure that I can tell the story without making it seem like I'm just handing it to them on a plate.

But it is kind of hard to navigate. I think that I of course am weary of am I writing this, I'll say it again, authentically, is there too much trauma that I'm writing in my story. One thing that I've noticed with my older books is that they are very heavy and they are very, I guess, traumatic-based stories. I think that I am at the moment trying to navigate a balance because you can have that trauma on a page but then there's also humor in life in general. You can have a very difficult life or difficult situation but, at some point throughout the data, you probably will laugh. I want to make sure that I do that. It is hard. It is hard.

As a child, I had a difficult teenage childhood I guess. When I write, I think about that child I was as a teen. It's hard for me to remember the times that I laughed as a teenager or to remember the times that I felt humor throughout my day. I know that they existed. When I write middle-grade or young adult, at the moment I'm trying to reflect on what were those humorous moments, what were the moments that made me relax for a second because, in a very heavy book, you need that. You need time to breathe.

I think it's important when we're writing stories that feature these issues or more writing in "issue book", that we're also putting in the moments where we're just breathing through it all to give my reader a break but then to give ourselves a break, too, and then to show a kid who might be going through this at that moment that there is humor or there's lightness on the other side.

Mary: I think that's a really important point to make, and you kind of said "issue book" in air quotes. I've been saying "issue book" in air quotes because I think that's at the heart of the conversation that we're having is that just because you are a black writer doesn't mean that you have to fit into this little slice of the marketplace and write an "issue book" that just deals with the black experience. At the end of the day, the conversation is that we're all human beings. We all laugh. We all suffer trauma.

It's just, with your particular experience and the black experience in America, there's a whole layer to it that you touched upon a couple times now. This intergenerational trauma that is just...I mean middle school was some of the worst years of my life but I didn't have this additional layer on it as well, and so you're figuring out how do I communicate a complicated teen experience that's further compounded by some of these issues that you're also writing about. I think that balance is really, really important to strike so that kids can realize that, you know, there's...because there's something aspirational about children's books at the end of the day. We are that responsibility that you talked about. We do need to communicate to kids that, yeah, things can get really grim but there's a redemption that the character goes through or something the character realizes or maybe even a glimmer of hope in any situation. I think that's just thematically across the board present in most of the children's books that I've read.

Brittany: Definitely. There was one thing that I remember Jason Reynolds saying was that your story doesn't have to be wrapped up in a bow. It doesn't have to end perfectly as long as you let your reader know that your characters are going to be okay. That's one thing that I've been trying to focus on when I end a story is that it doesn't have to be a perfect ending because life isn't perfect. At the moment, we don't know how things will look in the future but, as long as we leave our readers with the knowledge that our characters are going to make it through somehow, someway, then we've done our job.

I also think that, when I write, my characters are black. They come from black families and, within black culture, there is humor to navigate the world. I know that me and my family, when we eat dinner on Sunday, we're laughing at something or another. We have ways to get through anything. That is what I try to also incorporate.

Mary: I think that goes back to your earlier...I mean, for your whole career since you really committed yourself to writing for young readers, working with young readers, it's this outreach and I think that's the amazing thing that we can do in a book, which is we talk basically one on one to a reader. In your picture books or your books for slightly older readers, is it about the hope at the end? What would you say you're trying to look your reader in the eye and communicate to them?

Brittany: I think I would say that your experience is your experience. It is okay for you to feel the way that you feel or navigate that how you navigate that experience. I know that that is not a pretty sentence but I just want readers to know that either what they're feeling or what they're going through is okay.

Mary: I mean it sounds like self-acceptance. They may be dealing with a world where acceptance is hard to come by, and I think this idea of: it's okay if you're okay. It's okay if you're not okay. I mean that's a new idea for some people especially if they're finding themselves told how to be, how to feel, what to do, who to be by a dominant society just hearing that, "You know what? It's okay if you're not okay," or however you deal with this. You're doing your best. I think there's great value in that.

Brittany: I think that definitely I write that way for kids but then for adults, too, because as an adult, I wish that as a child I would have recognized it was fine for me to be the way that I was. It was fine for me to be quiet. It was fine for me to have nerves because I coped in the way that I coped. I think that society pushes you to act a certain way, think a certain way, be a certain way. In my books, I want kids to know that however you are that is fine.

For instance, I wrote this story that reflected a girl that is "shy" and I say "shy" in quotes because I don't like the word. I think that, when we think that the child is shy, they're not shy. They're just reflecting. I want kids to know that it is okay for them to reflect or to be quiet or to think about the world differently from how the rest of the world wants us to think.

Mary: Absolutely. So let's pivot now to...you kind of segued into it in your writing for adults and now you as an adult. This is when you were in the position to start your publishing career. I think it is important to discuss some of the recent things going on in the industry. The industry has historically not been very friendly to accepting of championing black voices, people of color, writers of different sexualities.

Lee & Low did their diversity in publishing survey and the 2019 numbers are publishing on the inside from editors to sales and marketing to the sea level. Staff is something like 76% white, 70 something percent cisgendered female, 80% straight and 89% non-disabled or identifying as non-disabled. It's an industry with a big issue in terms of representing the diversity of our world at least within the ranks of the people that produce the books, acquire the books, and champion the voices. That's historically been a huge issue within the industry.

Publishing has recognized that, but recognition is step zero, right? Now, we have to do something about it and there have been some movements afoot like, "We need diverse voices and own voices," a lot of acquisitions to try and bring more balance to the industry. How do you feel becoming a debut author and launching your career in this era of publishing has been for you?

Brittany: From the day, I guess I will say that I pursued publishing to my announcement. It had been about five years and I think that it took that long because of course there were doors that were closed or there were doors that I thought were open but then led to a brick wall. The past two years have been awesome because I have an amazing agent and I have been around other authors who have accepted me and who have mentored me, but just getting to that point has been very rocky. I am grateful for We Need Diverse Books.

I remember very early on in my career that I went to a symposium at the Library of Congress, and Jacqueline Woodson was there. I remember she remembered me from a different event, which made me realize that I was accepted and seen and then seeing, for instance, Kwame Alexander and Jason Reynolds on the stage and just hearing what they have to say, I felt within just that room in general that this was where I belonged because I had been to other conferences. I had been to a conference where I was the only black person in the room of 200 people. The atmosphere was completely different.

I think that it's vital for We Need Diverse Books...I think that, if We Need Diverse Books didn't exist, we would be in a completely different place in publishing in terms of representation. When it comes to, for instance, own voices, I remember that I would do PB pitch on Twitter and I would put the hashtag but then think, "Why aren't my stories or loglines being seen without this hashtag? Why does it take that for my stories to be recognized?" but then even when an editor for instance or someone said that they wanted it or they wanted to look at it, the answer was, "We don't relate to this. We don't think that it will sell."

I think that, without those things, we would be very far off in terms of representation in publishing. I think that it shouldn't have taken that for black voices, POC voices to be heard. I think our voices should have always been heard because our shelves should reflect the world just as librarians in the libraries should reflect the world, but we still have a very far way to go.

Mary: Was it your impression just based on...? Because this is the second time that you mention getting that kind of response from an editor or somebody in a gatekeeping position of, "Yes, we want to hear about own voices stories. We want to hear diverse books," but then when it got a little bit more serious in the consideration phase, did you feel maybe that had just been some kind of outreach that they weren't prepared to follow through on?

Brittany: I don't know if that's how I felt at the time, but I think that what I can say is that especially today since a lot of publishers or people within publishing are reaching out to black authors that I hope that the intention is true behind it. Rejection is very...of course we all know rejection exists in publishing but it's even harder to face that rejection when you think that your manuscript is going to be received well. I don't always think, "This person has to buy this book," but it is also nice when you feel seen. Back in the day when I was starting out, that's not how I felt at all.

Mary: You've seen a very noticeable difference in terms of getting out there, getting considered, and you mentioned your agent...I would imagine that it was great to have that initial champion. I mean it's very validating for any writer when they go through the steps and find an agent and find a publishing deal, but you've seen a difference in how you've been able to progress from your beginning in the industry five years ago to now.

Brittany: I think that it's because I have... [inaudible 00:43:33] is very much an advocate and supportive. When it comes to work...of course she does. She knows the industry and she knows the editors who also understand this writing world that we live in. I've been very much grateful for that. But starting out five years ago when I didn't have an agent, when I was on my own, I might have had a mentor but I was still trying to navigate this world, it was difficult because I didn't have that guidance. It's also easy when you are starting out and you think that an opportunity looks good. It's easy to fall into that trap. I think that, if there are other debut authors or other authors who are trying to get an agent, or trying to get an editor, trying to get their work and themselves seen, I would say very much so to do the research and to make sure that you're not falling into a pitfall because we get our hopes us. I think as writers in general we get our hopes up. As a black writer, I want my books to be on the shelves of kids who look like me or kids who don't look like me. There is no greater, I guess, heartbreak especially within publishing than realizing deep into a situation that this is not what is meant for you. This is not going to help your career at all.

Mary: Yeah. I feel like a lot of writers have fallen into at least one situation where it's like, "Oh, it's a poetry anthology but they just want me to pay $50 to see my work in print." There's unfortunately—I don't understand it myself—a lot of predatory behavior in publishing because writers are so emotionally invested in their work and they'll go down a few rabbit holes without realizing that certain things are maybe too good to be true, but it must be compounded as you say when you're just trying to be heard.

Brittany: Yeah, definitely. It's easy to just go for what you think is gold but also I think there's no easy path within publishing. You will have your rejection. You will have your pitfalls. That's unfortunately a part of it. But I think that, if we observe and if we're aware, then that helps alleviate some of those issues that might pop up in the future.

Mary: I know one thing you wanted to specifically talk about. I initially asked you about how you felt that We Need Diverse Books, and own voices, and the current culture in publishing has affected your work on the page. What about off the page? Especially as you shift into you're going to have a book out in 2021, you're going to start figuring out your marketing position, your marketing plan, and doing more outreach as an author now, not an aspiring writer. How do you feel that the industry is doing on that front?

Brittany: I think that, with the current events, for instance, it's unfortunate that the events have happened. I think that, because of the things that have happened, more people have reached out to black authors and so there's more opportunity within publishing to let yourself be heard.

Mary: So what you're referring to really is the unrest surrounding most recently the death of George Floyd in late March 2020. It's now June 2020. This is very much at a boiling point right now and I am seeing it, too. I'm seeing a lot of people doing outreach to black writers, black creators, black artists. Are you saying that it's your hope that this continues? I think there's been a lot of discussion of virtue signaling and everybody's doing social media blackout for one day. But what happens when this is no longer trending?

Brittany: I think that, to go along with that, for instance, with Breonna Taylor and George Floyd, things for a week and a half were very tense. It literally seemed as if this past Monday things "went back to normal". I think that, within publishing, it's important to make sure that this continues and this conversation continues. Publishing books by black authors needs to always be a constant and should have been a constant anyway, but these conversations don't just stop because, for me, my life can't go back to whatever normal is. I think it's important to recognize that kids now are going to have the things that they feel today on them a week from today, a month from today, years from today. I hope that in 2021 that we're still having these conversations and we're still exploring what it means to go forward and what we can do in the future within publishing as well.

Mary: In your opinion and in your experience, if you could make a recommendation to publishing people, publishing industry people, booksellers, librarians, anybody in the position to support black writers, writers of color, what would you like to see to help you debut and keep these conversations going and keep writing your books? What would an ideal publishing landscape look like for you to make sure that this is a real change that happens not only in the industry that allows you to make the change you want to make in the lives of young readers?

Brittany: Ideally, I would like to see whether it's publishing or the life of library work education. I would like to see more people listening without putting their own spin on how they think things should be. I think that that's what I've seen a lot of recently. I hate reading comments on Facebook but of course you fall into that trap when you read one.

Mary: Yeah, totally.

Brittany: It's so frustrating to see people dismiss something that I know is true. I hope that right now, not just in the future, I hope that listening is involved and honestly taking action. For instance, me as a black writer, me as a black woman or any other black person out there shouldn't have this work put on them ever because it's not our responsibility. I think that is very much frustrating when you have people from various organizations still wanting that black person to do the work. I think that people need to listen more and recognize that the trauma that we face is real and that everyone can take steps to make black voices heard.

Mary: I think this goes back to authenticity and honesty in the way that we talk to kids, that we talk to one another, and in championing black voices and doing better just as a society and, in our case, a publishing industry to make sure those books get out there, get the platform that they need, and get into the hands of young readers not just of color but all young readers so that everybody can know from a first-hand perspective what the experience is instead of just guessing or making our own assumptions.

Brittany: Yes. I always like to think about my time at the library because that was when I saw first-hand black kids recognizing themselves or even recognizing me as a person who worked at a library. Someone said once, "Thank you for working here." I think that even that one little instance at the library let me recognize that I was seen and appreciated. Publishing black authors writing books, kids recognize what is real and they recognize what has been told truthfully. They want to see themselves reflected. They want to see themselves reflected on a page but also at book events, at conferences, at book signings.

Mary: Is there anything else that you want to make sure that all writers, all listeners, publishing people, non-publishing people, anything else that you really want to say as we tie up this interview?

Brittany: Read black books, support black authors. We know that, A, black authors don't get paid as much as white authors. We know that their books don't get marketed as much. I think that we should all be supporting the books that are out there at the moment. Pre-order someone's book. Maybe pre-order that book today.

Mary: Fantastic advice. Keep pre-ordering. In 2021, when your book comes out, there should be just as much attention and conversation as there is today.

Brittany: Absolutely.

Mary: I think that's a really important point to make that many people are not going to be as aware of right now, that this is at the very front of public consciousness right now. But, as you wrote to me in your email, I have always thought of my life as political because, for you, this is every day. This is not just June 2020.

Brittany: Yes.

Mary: Brittany, thank you so much for coming on. Your debut book is "Fly". It's coming out from Atheneum in 2020. I'm going to post links to your website, your social medias, so that people can check you out, check out your work. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your insights.

Brittany: Yeah. Thank you for having me. This has been fun and, yeah, I look forward to what comes next.

Mary: All right. To everyone out there, here is to a good story.

Thank you so much for joining us for the "Good Story Podcast". My name is Mary Kole. The "Good Story Podcast" is made possible by my team, Abby Pickus, Amy Holland, Amy Wilson, Jen Petro-Roy, Jenna Van Rooy, Kristen Overman, Paige Polzin, and audio and video wizardry from Steve Reiss. You can find us online at goodstorycompany.com, goodstorypodcast.com. I'm at marykole.com. And also, find your writing partner at critcollective.com. And here is to a good story.

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