Episode 40: Danielle Marietta, Creator of Books & Things Publishing
Danielle Marietta joins the podcast to discuss Books & Things Publishing, the children’s book sphere, and the importance of promoting diverse authors. Tune in to learn more about Danielle’s writing journey, and her tips on self-publishing, social media marketing, and connecting with your target audience.
transcript for Good Story Podcast Episode 40: Interview with DANIELLE MARIETTA, CREATOR OF BOOKS & THINGS PUBLISHING
Mary (00:01):
Hello, this is Mary Kole with The Good Story Podcast, all about the writing life, the publishing life, and everything in between. I want to thank our Good Story Company team. You can learn more about us at goodstorycompany.com, and I'm thrilled to bring you today's show. Here's to a good story.
Thank you so much for joining us for The Good Story Podcast. My name is Mary Kole, your intrepid host, maybe intrepid. And with me today I have Danielle Marietta, and I am so, so happy to welcome you. Can you please tell the good people what it is that you do?
Danielle (00:44):
Yes. First of all, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate your time and taking some time out to have me join you. My name, like you said, is Danielle and I write children's books and middle grade books. I have also started a publishing company called Books and Things Publishing, where we aim to promote diverse authors and allow them a platform to be creative. So that's kind of what I do and I'm looking for more diverse authors every day.
Mary (01:16):
Did you hear that out there in the audio sphere? Yep. So you do it all. You are on the creative side, the writing side. You are also on the behind-the-scenes production and you do some editorial services. I'm not sure if it's you doing all these things. If you have a team, we'll get into all of it, but where do you want to start? Because you do a little bit of everything.
Danielle (01:44):
We can start kind of at the beginning and I guess the beginning is me as an author. I will share that I've done five books now and we're just now celebrating the launch of the fifth. So my fifth book, I'm trying to write a little bit older as my kids get older. So this is a chapter book. It is called The Air Fair-He. It is a modern twist on the tooth fairy. So a little boy named Gabe, he's about nine years old. This book is specifically for kids, about seven years old to 10, 11 years old. Basically a little boy named Gabe loses his tooth. He's nine. He's like, I don't believe in this silly shenanigans that my parents are telling me. Let me go ahead and just, I'll try one time. Let me try and see if I can catch this tooth fairy and see what she's all about. So he sets up a trap and it actually works. And come to find out she turns out to be a he, and we known that we've all just been saying things too quickly because we all do everything too quickly and the word has always been Fair-He. So this is where we meet our Tooth Fair-He. So Gabe then goes with him and learns all about the teeth and what happens, and why some kids get money and some don't. So it's a fun one.
Mary (03:07):
Amazing, amazing. I love it. Making assumptions. You make an ass out of you and me. So you said that you are writing older because your kids are sort of aging up through the categories of children's books. Are they an inspiration for you or were you always pulled into children's books? Tell me a little bit about how everything started.
Danielle (03:29):
Yeah, for sure. They definitely are my inspiration. I did study journalism in college. I majored in that, but I was focused on news and was constantly getting the same feedback. Like, Danielle, get yourself out of this. I hear too much of yourself and your opinion and your voice and it's news. You got to cut that out. And so I was like, oh my God, I studied this and I failed at life. What am I going to do? So I started waiting tables as per usual and got married, had some kids, was reading to them and was like… there was a gap in what I wanted to see for their books and our home library. And so it was like, well, let me just play around with it. Let me get creative. And then I was like, oh my God, this is fun. So I just kept writing and have had an amazing time doing it.
(04:24):
I've had books celebrating Christmas with some of our holiday traditions, a book about tub time. I have a kid that hates bath time and I have a kid that loves it. So I wrote a book called Bubble Sea, and this one again is about the tooth fairy. My two oldest are boys, so wanting them to connect and fall in love with books has been difficult. So trying to find something that they're interested in. I use things that they say, there's a line in there where the tooth fairy, he goes, oh, no cap. And the other guy goes, no cap. And my editor was even like, what is this? I don't know, but the kids say it, apparently it's cool.
Mary (05:06):
It is being awesome is what it is. And watching TikTok, right.
Danielle (05:11):
I'm like, I'm trying here folks.
Mary (05:15):
That's pretty amazing. I am “sus”. Sus is very old now, as am I, but my child who is similar in age to your children, he is about to be eight. Everything is sus. He hasn't really gotten—so just from a very bad pun framework, did you make a joke about capped teeth?
Danielle (05:41):
No. Talk about ball drop!
Mary (05:45):
Missed opportunities!
Danielle (05:47):
Where were you a year ago? And see, we tried to get creative with all the other things in there. They're going to the root canal and it's the whirlpool of wisdom and all these other things, man, we missed that one.
Mary (06:03):
Kids don't know, but hopefully most children do not know what that means. So I think it's fine. We met the audience where they were .
Danielle (06:16):
Oh, I love it.
Mary (06:17):
So you do bring up some valuable points in terms of, that's why I love the thinking behind The Tooth Fair-He and your mission with your own publisher, which is sort of like, I'm really not finding books that my boy sons and gender as a social construct, and I don't want to paint things with an overly broad brush. But there is this kind of prevailing idea in publishing, in children's publishing specifically that boys don't really read as well or as hungrily or as long, right around 12. We tend to either lose them or they go up to adult books. And to me that's always kind of a chicken or the egg scenario because it's like, well, are they just not finding material that engages them and meets them where they are? If they're reluctant readers, if they're primarily binging graphic novel format stories or whatever the case may be. So is it that boys are simply not, they're falling into these patterns of not reading or is it that publishers have sort of pigeonholed certain age groups into certain formats and there really isn't a lot of room for flexibility. So I would imagine when you pivoted to creating your own publishing company, which is amazing, were any of these ideas kind of swirling around for you?
Danielle (07:47):
Yeah, exactly. And I appreciate even how you said all of that because it is like, well, where's the problem? Yes, I understand that this is the age of the slide where like you said, they stop doing it. And I think too, that falls on the parents and the publishers. But as the parents, I will say, so many parents are gung-ho about picture books, board books for their babies, picture books and oh mommy, baby time daddy baby time. And then the kids start getting a little bit older. They want to do Roblox, Minecraft, play video games, right? Trigger words.
Mary (08:24):
Have you been in my house? Are you watching me in the evenings?
Danielle (08:28):
Mine are 11, 9, and 5. So it's like you want to do what they want to do, you want to give them the gifts that they want, and at that age, they don't want books, they want toys, and then we do basketball or soccer or flag football or T-ball. And it's like, okay, but when did we stop buying books? When did we stop going to the library? When did we stop this moment of even me reading to you or you reading to me? So I think it's a combination between that age and then you start looking into, last year Barnes and Noble knocked out all of their middle grade books and it was, what was it? Only the top three authors, not even the top three publishers, the top three authors with middle grade books that got to stay. And it's like, okay, wait, we know there's an issue with literacy rates. We know there's an issue with reading levels with kids not being able to read, and you're going to, instead of invest in this, you're going to pull away from it? The math is not mathing. So it's something that I've realized too. This has been the hardest book for me to sell and promote, which then I'm like, shoot, do I go back to middle grade books? I need to make some money too, but this is an issue that I'm passionate about. So no, we're going to stick it out. So this is a series, so…
Mary (09:59):
Oh, great, okay.
Danielle (10:00):
Series. And we're going to do a couple other things, but we're also going to try and make them a little bit older each time. Kind of like JK Rowling did with Harry Potter and as her kids age, the books got a little bit more intense. And that's what we're thinking too. And yeah, just trying to publish more books for that age group because there's not a lot out there. And it's sad. It's really sad.
Mary (10:25):
Yeah, I keep reading because publishing is a funny business and I was going to make a bad joke when you were like, well, I'm failing as a journalist. I'm like, no, no, you failed when you decided to go into book publishing and not just as an author, but as a publisher, it is such a tricky business model, and I would love to hear the nitty gritty, but your end users are actually not your customers when you are a publisher. It's those booksellers, teachers, librarians, they act as sort of this middleman between you and your actual target audience and the needs of the target audience as we've already been discussing. They sometimes get a little bit lost in the entire shuffle. And because of these kind of big conglomerate rigidities that they have built into all of these categories, I keep reading every once in a while there's this desperate plea in School Library journal or Publisher's Weekly that just says, where are all the YA books for 14 year olds?
(11:29):
And that is one of those gray areas where when I was an agent and now as a writing teacher, it's so much easier to just say, no, that is the valley that you do not go into. You're going to fall into a black hole. But then those readers, through those librarians, through those teachers, are clamoring for clean teen or a reluctant reader level of middle grade manuscript with slightly older characters and who's serving those populations? And then it's no wonder that people sort of fall off the literacy map and we are back to the chicken and the egg.
Danielle (12:11):
And there is the hoop, there's the cycle. And then we just have to hope that people fall in love with reading again as an adult. Because like you said too, these YA books, I enjoy reading YA books. I'm reading one right now and they're supposed to be sophomores in high school, but I can go from reading some YA books that I'm like, ooh, I feel old reading this to reading some YA books where I'm like, whose child is? This is an adult book. This is an adult book. So it is interesting too, trying to figure out where they fall. And I am learning so much too with this book specifically where I honestly started as a publisher, again, another publisher fail saying middle grade until realizing that so many people who aren't in the book world don't understand that middle grade and middle grade readers and middle school are not the same thing. So they're saying, well, wait a second, my kid is in middle school, he's in seventh grade. This book is way too young. And I'm like, well, middle grade readers are technically 8 to 12 and it doesn't align. And I'm like, why are we in the book world making things so difficult? Why are we making this so hard? And so then I'm like, okay, early reader. And then I'm getting my head chewed off by these parents that are buying those reader books that say one, two…
Mary (13:31):
The stepped readers.
Danielle (13:33):
Yeah, I feel like this is definitely advanced for that. And I'm like, well, where do we fall? They say chapter book. Really? Everything is a chapter book! I'm reading a chapter book. I'm so confused. I'm so confused. So it's definitely a struggle always.
Mary (13:51):
I mean, one of my least favorite questions, and I get it a lot having been in the children's book world, is how do I write and publish a children's book? And when I hear the term children's book, which has at least six subcategories, I'm like, well, how much time do you have today? Because did you know… but yeah, so I mean you do seem to be threading that needle of chapter book as little or as much as you enjoy that term. It is sort of for the 7 to 9, 10-year-old audience, what is the word count on this sort of thing? Because there are people who are very interested in forging ahead with chapter books even though they're not one of the primary categories of children's books.
Danielle (14:43):
Yep. This one's right at about 10,000 words. So you're looking at about a hundred pages. It's a little bit larger font, a little bit bigger spaces. And this one too, again, where I'm kind of hoping to touch base with parents is that it's a hybrid between a graphic and a chapter book. So there are four or five pictures in every chapter, so it'll entertain the kids. There's more text for the parents. So I'm trying to find this tiny niche that I know is there and kind of expose that too. And another thing to just tie this all back here to, I'm currently working on a newsletter and it's Black History Month based, and all of my books are featuring Black characters, but I personally don't say they're Black characters.
(15:39):
They're not hair based books, history based books, struggle books. And that's something that I push too, that I understand it's Black history, but we're looking at kids and I think about myself as a kid in elementary school growing up in an all white, predominantly white community, Black history month was the worst. Don't call on me. Everybody's looking at me. No, I don't want to lead the assembly again. No, I don't want to do this. Why is it always the struggle? And I get it as an adult, we need it, we need the history, we need that, but we also need to find the joy in it and find the celebration in it and encourage these Black kids too. You can have an imagination. You don't have to read a book that's a struggle book, that's a history book, that's a whatever. So I'm really, really also into just creating joyful books, imagination, fantasy. We need that too. So to go off topic with that, that's another big focus of mine. And I'm getting, it's hard as a publisher, they're like, oh, you're a Black publisher. What books do you have that we can bring into our school? And then they're like, oh, this isn't what I'm looking for. And I'm like, well, you need to broaden.
Mary (16:55):
I would put them on the spot. I would be like, so what kind of trauma porn are you looking for?
Danielle (17:01):
Yes, thank you. Let me write this down. That's exactly what it feels like. I'm like, we're trying to get these kids to like reading. No offense to any other authors or any of the things. We need them and I read them, but we need the kids right now to like reading and in order to like reading, we need them to connect and we need them to enjoy it. And that's not something that kids go running off to their room to read. Let me not speak on all kids. So let me stop talking.
Mary (17:39):
Let's proceed with the caveat that we're making some generalizations about publishing, about publishers, about readers, about ages of readers, genders of readers, races of whatever. And there have been some movements toward Black girl magic, Black boy joy, these kind of more uplifting stories that aren't necessarily Black books, whatever that means. One of the kind of underbellies of the publishing's movement toward diversity and inclusion efforts, some of which are more performative than others, and it's amazing, and a rising tide lifts all boats. But I have also heard from creators feeling like they have to be representative of some kind of narrative that has been institutionally decided upon if I'm getting across. And so books that don't fit that mold of “a Black book” or the “perfect Jewish book” or the “perfect AAPI book”, whatever, they don't necessarily know what to do with that because of preconceived notions and kind of these other problems where it's like, well, do you actually want to solve the problem or do you want to look like you're solving them? Anyway. So you decided you have this kind of well of creativity, you can see some of the issues ahead of you. You decided to, things are best done when you do them yourself. So talk me through that step.
Danielle (19:23):
Yeah, so it's funny because I technically started Books and Things Publishing before I published my first book.
Mary (19:32):
What?!
Danielle (19:34):
I know, so even I started it before because as I was researching the self-publishing process, I learned that if you're going to publish three or more books, it's best if you do it under your own brand. So I was like, well, I've got three in the bank right now. I don't know what this means, but we'll figure it out. First name that comes to mind, Books and Things. Let me go to LegalZoom. Oh, it's available, add to cart checkout. Here we go. So then I was like, oh, shoot, my book is coming out in a couple weeks. I need to get a logo. Hey Fiverr, I need a logo. Cool, got it.
(20:09):
So it really was developed just for me. And during this time too, then Covid started happening, and then I kept publishing books, and then my social media started growing and people started reaching out to me, asking me questions, how do you self-publish, what should I do? What is this process? And so I slowly started adding in some one-on-ones, and then it was like, well, my editor is always looking for editing things and I love doing developmental edits, so let's add editing. And then that started happening and I'm like, well, let's do 'em all under Books and Things Publishing. And people started asking, well, do you publish other authors? And I tiptoed in it for a second. I dabbled. I dropped a pinky toe in there and then I was like, oh no, that's scary. I don't want to do that. So I decided not to, and this time I still had my full-time job and then March last year, so it's officially almost been a year.
Mary (21:14):
Okay, amazing.
Danielle (21:15):
Yep. My full-time job told me that I had to come back in the office full-time. Yeah, so with the kids, I was still doing a hybrid type situation, but I was like, you know what? Let me shoot my shot. This seems like the perfect time. Books and Things Publishing is starting to move. Let's try it out. So I said, good riddance and dipped out and was like, yes, I'm open to publish. And all of a sudden I started getting manuscripts, manuscripts, and people sending me stuff, and then things were happening quickly and a year later, and I'm still here and it's growing. We've signed some awesome authors and we're just now, which is also crazy, starting to get those authors’ books published. So we have two of them coming out in March, another in April, one set for August. So it’s going, it was a slow roll, but we're here.
Mary (22:22):
That's so funny because it seems like it was sort of like, necessity is the mother of invention. You're like, okay, there's a field here for a publisher name, huh. Okay.
Danielle (22:34):
That’s exactly.
Mary (22:35):
Right. And then you set it up for yourself. So a lot of people want to learn how to self-publish, and that is where you decided to add coaching and one-on-ones and sort of give advice to other writers, give them help, sort of apply what you've learned and give other people a leg up. So how did you learn that? Are there tools or are there things that made the process easier for you? Because right now we have probably the most tools that we've ever had to grease the tracks and make self-publishing easy, even beautiful. Some self-published books are almost indistinguishable in terms of quality now. So all of these things exist, but that also means there are a lot of things that exist. So how'd you sort of pick your way through all of the resources available?
Danielle (23:28):
I mean, honestly, it's kind of changing. Each season I learned something else and it's kind of morphing and changing, and I still refer to us as kind of an early business, and I tell that to anyone that reaches out to me and that I tell them, Hey, we want to publish your book, but this is what it looks like. If you want something else, please let me know. And we want it to work for both parties. But I honestly used a lot of Instagram videos, TikTok videos, Google, just YouTube. Holy cow. I learned how to do all the things on YouTube, and it is amazing to me then, when people reach out to me and ask me how to do the things like, did you Google it? So I'm also realizing that there are a lot of people that just won't, and maybe they're scrolling and thinking about nothing, nothing, just were aimlessly scrolling. And then they see you and they're like, oh, I think I've always wanted to write a book, and whether that's true or not. And then they're like, oh, well now I've watched a few of your videos and I really do want to write a book, and because I've connected with you, I trust you.
Mary (24:36):
Imprinted on you a little gosling. And then they're like, do it. Well, basically a lot of people are like, do it for me. It is the people who actually watch the videos. I create educational content too. This is something that we do. We love to teach, we love to do it. There are people who you can lead a horse to YouTube, but that horse is just going to stand there and be like, just tell me what to do. I can't, the inputs aren't turning into outputs. And that's wonderful because if you love to teach to help people elevate or provide plans for them or frameworks for them, whatever, it's a great thing. But I've also found that some people, those outputs don't materialize no matter how much they binge on the stuff.
Danielle (25:29):
Yeah. Yep. I agree with that too. And I think that's why then when they find you or find me, then they're like, they're all in. And one of the things that I am leaning into now is educating them again on the difference between self-publishing, hybrid publishing, and traditional publishing. Because now as we're growing, they're seeing me and realizing, Hey, she's a hybrid publisher, scam, red flag, red flag. And I'm like, no. Understand the differences. Yes, obviously you can get scammed, you can get scammed anywhere. But look at these companies, look at what they're doing. If you Google them and all the scam things come up, then yeah, maybe don't do them, don't go with them. But there are hybrid publishing companies out there that are legit, and honestly, they're the perfect option for those. And again, this is where I'm leaning in for those working moms, those people that are still in school, maybe you have two full-time jobs or multiple jobs.
(26:31):
You have kids, you have a busy life, you have a busy life and you've always wanted to write a book, but you don't necessarily have the time to sit down, learn how to format, learn how to design, learn how to do all these things. It's like, you know what, if you self-publish, you're going to pay for it anyways and you're probably going to pay five, six different people, or you can find a hybrid publisher to do it all for you and pay one person. And I try to lead with that too. Yes, you're going to pay because this is my livelihood and this is how I keep the roof over my head. But at least then you don't have to stop parenting or miss out on that game because you sat in your car trying to learn how to do something, like go live your life and just give us your manuscript and we'll make it happen for you. So trying to change that narrative. And I'm realizing too that there's a lot of us moms out there that have something to say.
Mary (27:31):
I don't know what it is. I mean, is it that we're thrilled with the way our lives are turning out and all the pressure? No. And to your point, I steer people away from publishing scams in general because I do think that that person who is short on time but is full of rage or creativity or both is vulnerable. There are a lot of scammers out there who do prey on people because they're sort of bringing you their quivering hearts and you're a mission-driven organization. It's very easy to align with you and you're very personable and all of that, and it's a vulnerable sort of transaction. But there are many routes to publishing. And when you choose to self-publish, or maybe you tried, you took a swing at traditional, it did not work out. Maybe for that project, maybe it's not ready yet. You still have things to learn.
(28:27):
You are going to be paying for your process to market, whether it's with time or whether it is with financial investment. You can learn how to do all of these things to your point, how well you are able to do all of them when you choose to self-publish is a question mark, and that's where developmental editors, proofreaders, cover designers, formatters, all of that come in and you can do all of those things yourself, but you are going to have to be that horse on YouTube figuring everything out. And I'm not a visual design person at all. And so if I tried to design a cover without any outside help, it would look like garbage, even with the best tools. Canva makes it so easy, but you have to have the vision. That's the thing that Canva can't sell you.
Danielle (29:20):
Yep. Yep. That's another thing too, is I'm learning how to lean into Canva, but oh my God, a time suck. I am like, how did I just spend five hours and all I did was decide I want this green. I don't know how that happened, but it's all learning and getting quicker.
Thanks so much for tuning in so far to the Good Story Podcast. If you like our writing resources, we have collected them all in an on- demand vault for the Good Story Learning membership. For one low monthly fee, you can dig through everything that we have ever made for writers: webinars, long form video classes, downloadables, handouts, all of it, as well as join our Discord writing community to connect with like-minded writers and all of the Good Story Company editors in there as well for advice, critique, connections, anything you could possibly want to take a break from the long and isolated work of crafting your story. So come join us.
Mary (30:38):
So the two big question marks, and I think the real bulk of the heavy lifting for any self-published author, any publisher, are marketing and distribution. These are the things where when somebody self-publishers, they have all these dreams of, I'm going to walk into Barnes and Noble, who we've already kind of, we talked about in this conversation, I'm going to walk into a bookstore or I'm going to land in a library. But they don't realize that not necessarily, there are millions of books published. Again with all these tools where you can go to market today if you wanted to. There is just a glut of material coming out and they don't realize that the distribution network doesn't necessarily favor self or hybrid published projects unless somebody has gone through the process of building those relationships. They don't realize that every copy that sells, at least at first, is sold through your flop sweat, basically blood and tears, making that sale happen and moving that needle through marketing, which a lot of writers are not naturally wired to do. So these are the things that are, I would imagine, huge value adds if you are able to take some of those things off of a writer's plate as well.
How have you been building that side of your business?
Danielle (32:07):
I have definitely been building my platform to share their books and share their stories, but that is honestly something that I talk to every author that I work with, whether that be one of the packages we have is for book launches, so to help them launch their book and I'm like, listen, I can help you with this, but you got to get out there somehow. And I try and teach them too that because yes, a lot of times writers tend to be more introverted. If you don't want your face on camera, that is fine. There are some accounts with 10 million followers and all I've ever seen are their hands, right? Showing us how to do the things or flipping through pages of a book or whatever. And so I try to give them different tips and tools and how to connect with folks via social media and the importance of building up their own newsletter and their own network that way. But I do recognize that they find me based on my social media, so I feel like I have to keep building that to bring them even in. So that's been hard.
Social media is a love hate relationship. I know I have to do it. Then sometimes I love it and I'm addicted to it, and then sometimes I'm like, God, I wish I didn't have to look at my phone because my eyes are bleeding. I can't do this anymore. And just telling them to stay consistent. So yeah, for marketing, social media has been majorly beneficial. Just telling them to pick a platform. If you're not comfortable with TikTok, don't do it. If you're not comfortable with Instagram, don't do it. If you're Facebook still, honestly, some of the best authors that I've seen are on Facebook and then I'm like, let me go back. Let me see if my grandpa's still on here.
Mary (34:05):
Ouch. We're making enemies of Barnes and Noble today. We are making enemies of Meta.
Danielle (34:14):
No, but I love my Facebook groups, honestly. That's where I've learned a ton in some of the author groups on Facebook, the writer groups there. Yeah, it's, it's a struggle all around. So just finding whatever they're comfortable in and going for it and not being afraid to get themselves out there. And yes, to your point earlier, telling these authors, you want to be at Barnes and Noble, you have to be comfortable talking about yourself and you have to, whether that's sharing with them on social media and sliding in the DMs and learning how to do that appropriately or showing up in person and saying, Hey, this is me. I'm a local author. Just trying to teach them the best ways to do the things as I'm still learning them myself.
Mary (35:07):
Is that kind of a tension point for you where you're building your business and now that you have started offering to be a platform for other people, you're also building up their business? How do you navigate that?
Danielle (35:25):
Yeah, I'm still kind of learning my way around that. It's frustrating for me when other people just assume that, okay, I signed up with you. How come I don't have X amount of followers? Or how come this only got X amount of whatevers? And I'm like, listen, I don't know. I don't know. Let me be honest with you. I don't know. But also that it's like so many people are entitled and come across very much like, we all think the work that we did, the writing that we did is the best ever. Right? And I'm talking about myself too. Let me humble myself, but we all think, well, this video was fantastic. It should easily go viral. Why didn't it go viral? Viral, yes, I'm so confused. Why didn't this do that? Or why didn't this? Or I've tried it now three times I'm over it. I'm like, and that's where you fall short. So trying to teach them that those viral videos don't do anything for you.
(36:43):
Let me tell my friend, I'm going to talk about her real quick. My co-author on this book has 500,000 followers. I thought for sure this is going to be the biggest launch I have ever done. Of my five books, this is the worst launch I have ever done. And trying to then tell that to people, they don't believe it. And I'm like, it's not about how many followers you have. She might have all these followers, but they're not buyers. They like to watch her videos, they listen to her, but that doesn't mean they're going to buy from her. And when I kind of dropped my whole, I sell launch packages, I love book launches, and I chose not to do that with her because I wanted to trust the TikTok system and learned real quick that it is fake news. The fakest of fake news.
(37:42):
So we went back to the drawing board. This book officially launched in November. I would say it had a flop launch. So she's in Florida, I'm in Virginia. I said, listen, we're going to do a book launch the way I sell the book launches. So I said, we need to figure out a time either I'm coming down there, you're coming up here, we're going to set up some events back to back to back, and we're going to push, push, push hard all at one time. And we just did it this last weekend and it was phenomenal. We more books this last month than we have since it came out. And it's just understanding the system too, and understanding what works and not believing the follower hoopla. There is some strategy to the madness, if that makes any sense.
Mary (38:37):
You know what, I am so glad that you're sharing this and I couldn't agree with you more. I think that setting expectations is one of the most important things that anybody who works with creative individuals or who works in putting products to market can do. Because I think there are just, like you said, fake news. I think there are so many misconceptions out there, especially when it comes to marketing that need to be dispelled and people don't believe. I think they don't, but it's like follower account is one thing. But even now, digital marketers know that engagement rates are much more telling about the quality of somebody's followers. Not every, I remember when I first got into MailChimp, which is my email campaign service provider platform, and I had all these subscribers and then I clicked into it and I saw that each one of them had a star rating based on their open rates, kind of their click rates, their engagement rates, their length of commitment to opening my emails.
(39:58):
And I was like, wait a minute. I don't actually have— it’s like a first draft versus a revision. You're like, I have 60,000 words. I'm on top of the world. Oh, half these words are kind of not so good. And it's just sort of peeling back those layers and seeing that not every single follower is going to buy your book. And that's just numbers. That's just reality. So you can't control what those end users are going to do. All you can control is your effort to build and engage with the followers that you do have and that you will get through your marketing efforts so that you're sort of stockpiling them. So those numbers end up eventually working in your favor when you do a launch, you introduce a new product, whatever, you cannot count on 100% conversion rates. Nobody in the world has that. Not even huge, multinational corporations. You just, I think it's just these small incremental changes, like you said, consistency, that make all the difference. And if you're just looking for kind of a flash bang launch and your book is out there and you're talking on Good Morning America about it in your head, it's not a one and done effort on anybody's part. Publisher, writer, collaborator.
Danielle (41:31):
Yeah, it takes a lot. It takes a lot. So teaching people how to do that and how to be consistent and how to connect with their readers, I think that's the number one thing too. And that's where I've realized I can't, and I tell authors this too, you can't talk about your book every single day because then yes, it does burn people out. So if it is social media, you want to be social with them and connect with them over like-minded things. Like I now know you have an 8-year-old son. I could lean in that all day because as a fellow mom of an 8, 9-year-old boy, we could talk for hours. So it's then connecting with that. I connect with other parents, I connect with other authors and share books that I enjoy reading. And when you start connecting with other people on social media with like interests, and then you drop a nugget about your book, then they're going to listen a little bit more because now they've already built the trust and now they're already in it.
(42:34):
So then, okay, cool. You dropped one little nugget about your book. They liked it. And then you talked a little bit more about other books. Shared your book shopping trip to Target where you spent $5,000 on pillows and then you go back and then you drop another little tiny nugget about your book, and that's what then brings them in. And so it's a long haul, but I really love it. I love all sides of it. I love the writing. I love editing other people's stories, helping them hopefully get a better idea of their story. Can I share one little story about an editing process?
Mary (43:19):
Yes, absolutely. But only if I get to tell you about a pillow related shopping trip I took to Target.
Danielle (43:26):
Yes, because they're real. It's a real thing.
Mary (43:28):
It's very real. Yeah, please.
Danielle (43:31):
Okay. So I am trying to bring on more authors to Books and Things Publishing that aren't just children authors. So we have finally signed with an adult author, and it's a fantasy book. And so I'm like, okay, reading it, read it and was also like, had massive changes that I wanted to give. So I ran it past the other editor too, and she agreed with the things that I was saying and I think I had to sweat it out myself for a week before I provided that information to the author. It was a massive change. Basically cut all this, don't do that. And this first chapter is actually your last chapter type stuff.
Mary (44:20):
Pretty sweeping. Yeah.
Danielle (44:21):
It was pretty big. And I put it together and I sent it and she called me and thanked me for being honest. And we're in rewrites and I love it. And it's just trusting your gut but also trusting the process. And as authors and writers, you have to be able to take that feedback because like we said earlier, the first draft ain't the one. It's not the one.
Mary (44:51):
Uh-huh. All of mine always are. I just knock it out the first time. No, not at all.
Danielle (44:59):
But yeah, it's been pretty fun and learning how to edit better and get more creative with people, but then also how to provide that feedback. I've enjoyed that most with the publishing process.
Mary (45:12):
That's amazing because you are technically a hybrid publisher. So there is maybe that sense in the back of your head of like, they're coming to me for a service. How hard can I push? What is the balance of power here in this relationship? But also standing by your work, unlike a lot of hybrid publishers that I have seen, you are leveling up not only yourself, but that other person so that you are acting more as a partner than just this kind of click publish and just upload it to KDP on your behalf.
Danielle (45:54):
Right? Yes. I want these books to be able to go far. I want the company to go far. I mean, if ultimately one day a big publishing house comes by and says, hey, we want you to be an imprint. What? That's the goal. So in order to do that, I'm just trying to be careful with the books that we put on. We're not publishing everyone's book, so I still make them submit their manuscript. Just because you say you want to publish with me doesn't mean it's good.
Mary (46:24):
Yep. I was going to ask, I mean, where is the future? So you've taken on your first book for adult readers and it's a genre novel. Where do you see this going from here? Because when you're in, it seems like you have a juicy list of projects. You are very engaged, you're learning and teaching at the same time. You're just in a very dynamic place. So where is all this headed?
Danielle (46:51):
Hopefully it is headed down the path of continued growth. Hopefully at some point I'll make a dollar.
Mary (47:00):
Just one, though.
Danielle (47:02):
Just lemme get one little crusty dollar. But just growth. We are starting to have illustrators and illustrator team that's kind of contracted with us. We now have formatters, editors. I have a book trailer person and so I can see it. We just have to keep going. I think we're on a good path, but it's tough. It's tough, it's fun, but it's tough. So the big goal would be to have some major book publisher Penguin, MacMillan come in…
Mary (47:48):
You're like, I'm going to keep saying keywords until somebody hears me from Harper Collins, Random House…
Danielle (47:56):
Candlewick Press.
Mary (47:59):
Oh, Candlewick would be a get.
Danielle (48:01):
Candlewick would be, yeah. So if anyone would want to add an imprint, being able to still be a part of a company, be a part of doing the things, but actually have funding behind me would be fantastical. That's the goal.
Mary (48:21):
I love that. And I love that you are just soaking up this collaborative process because it really does take that village and you are sort of bringing all these writers in, these other creatives in, you're becoming more creative. Everything you learn, you can sort of apply to future projects. I love the sound of all of that and who, I don't think even you knew you were going to start a publishing house.
Danielle (48:52):
Yeah. That was not on my to-do list a few years ago, so I'm so glad I found it. I think a lot of us too, just us as people in general, we're just living every day. I am not sure what I'm supposed to be doing. I was in sales, I hated it, but it's what I was good at, so I did it. The kids were growing up. I felt like I was missing it, and just life was just kind of this hoop that was just going and going and be like, oh, another year. Oh, another year. What am I doing? And falling into writing again, I know I studied it in school, but completely fell off and finding it again and finding it the right way for me, I feel so lucky to have found my passion and something that I can hopefully just do for forever.
Mary (49:53):
I know. I'm like, wow, I am missing my children's childhood and what is my passion and I'm about to go have an existential crisis. No, I mean.
Danielle (50:05):
No, you got it. You're in it. You're doing it.
Mary (50:08):
I think that it is, to your point, one of the biggest, most amazing, scariest things in life to just figure out what you love to do and then do it and then also have other people that you are also activating and they rely on you. And that's scary. But by amplifying your signal and your message and getting these books out into the world, imagine what you could do. That's the stuff that keeps you going through all of the learning curves and all of the hard work and the lack of the one dollar.
Danielle (50:46):
Yes. One day.
Mary (50:48):
One day, man, just frame it on your wall. You are a joy.
Danielle (50:55):
I still need the pillow story though.
Mary (50:57):
Oh, the pillow story. Well, one time I ordered a pillow and it matched nothing in my house. And I knew that going into it. And then when it arrived, it matched nothing in my house and I couldn't even use it. But for some sick reason, I just had to have this pillow. If only temporarily. I have eyeballs, I know what's going to go with whatever.
Danielle (51:23):
I need this.
Mary (51:25):
I needed to hold it in my hands before I let it go. I don't know why I was rambling to the guy at the returns counter. I was like, I don't know why I did this. Can you tell me? He's like, no, this place is a mirage and we pump drugs into the air here. Don’t you know that about Target? I was like, yes. That's why I keeps showing up.
Danielle (51:48):
They really do. That's why I know the return man guy by name, Return Guy.
Mary (51:53):
Exactly.
Danielle (51:54):
Hey Joe, it's me again.
Mary (51:55):
Hey, Joe, I'm back. Yeah, I didn't need this pillow, but we do need books.
Danielle (52:02):
We do.
Mary (52:04):
I'm trying to bring it in for a landing after the pillow segue.
Danielle (52:08):
Did I cut you off while you were doing it? You were in it.
Mary (52:11):
No, no, I was not in it. But you know what? We are going to find it together. And I think that's exactly the mission of Books and Things Publishing.
Danielle (52:21):
It is! Books and Things Publishing will be here. We appreciate all the support. I thank you for having me on just to even chat about what we're doing about our books and just trying to diversify those bookshelves y’all. That's the goal.
Mary (52:39):
I love it. I absolutely love it. And you are just a marvel. Danielle Marietta of Books and Things Publishing, thank you so much for coming on The Good Story Podcast and here's to a good story made by you, Danielle.
Danielle (52:55):
Thank you!
Mary (53:01):
Thanks so much for joining me. This has been Good Story podcast with me, Mary Kole. I just want to offer a heartfelt thank you and bit of gratitude to the entire Good Story Company team. You can find out more at goodstorycompany.com. And of course, to all of you listening and taking the time to really dig into these conversations with me. This has been Good Story Podcast, and here's to a good story.
Want even more Good Story Company content? Become a member! Get access to tips, workshops, handouts, resources and videos for writers of all levels—all for less than your Netflix subscription. This post contains affiliate links.