Young adult author Farrah Penn (Twelve Steps to Normal & Cancelled) details her publishing journey, from striking out on submission to her newest novel. Listen in to this conversation for thoughts on the young adult genre, using tropes, crafting stakes and curveballs for your characters, and how screenwriting may help when writing a novel.

Transcript of Episode 43: FARRAH PENN, ya AUTHOR

00:01.95 goodstory (Mary Kole)

Thank you for joining us here at the Good Story Podcast. I am Mary Kole, and with me I have a young adult author, Farrah Penn. How are you doing today?

00:11.66 Farrah Penn

I'm great. I'm honored to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

00:15.11 goodstory

My pleasure. Why don't you tell the good people a little bit about yourself?

00:19.41 Farrah

Yeah. So my name is Farrah. I grew up in North Texas and have just loved reading and writing for what feels like my whole entire life and I knew at one point I would love to pursue publishing a book and that didn't happen. I started taking myself more seriously after college. I studied creative writing in college and English and I feel like all of that was just kind of helping and building my way towards a writing career and shortly after college, I wrote a young adult novel and found a literary agent and, yeah, that's— I feel like that's the condensed version of how I got here.

01:13.47 goodstory

You make it sound so easy peasy lemon squeezy.

01:14.48 Farrah

It really wasn't, there is a long—

01:20.51 goodstory

The good people aren't here for easy peasy lemon squeezy. We want a little suffering with our publishing stories.

01:27.06 Farrah

Wouldn't it be great if everyone just had just the easiest time and everyone got six-figure book deals and it was all easy and great?

01:36.94 goodstory

Publishing is not the field for you if you want the six-figure book deals, the financial security, never having to deal with deadlines, unfortunately. No, I don't want to, you know, make your story shadowy and fraught if it wasn't. But yeah, how long do you think it took you overall to get to that next step?

02:04.88 Farrah

Yeah, so I think the longer version of my publishing story was in 2011, after college, I was like, you know, I loved the young adult space. I was loving reading young adult books and also adult books as well. But I knew like for me, I wanted to write a young adult book. This book in particular was a young adult dystopian book. It was the era of like Hunger Games and Divergent.

02:30.19 goodstory

Oh, yeah. It was like the hot time for all of those. And so you kind of came to the field reading YA because I was going to ask, of course, why young adult?

02:42.71 Farrah

Yeah, I grew up reading it. I grew up reading, you know, like in my era, it was like Sarah Dessen and Meg Cabot. Definitely not as like wide and diverse as it is now. It's so great to see how much it's grown, but those were like two authors in particular I was reading when I was a young adult. So yeah, I think that's, I knew I was like, I love this space and like just the coming of age of it all. And that's kind of the genre where I landed.

03:16.39 goodstory

So you were saying it was the heyday of Hunger Games, Divergent, all of these kind of blockbuster, kind of dystopian books.

03:25.48 Farrah

Yes, and so I had written, I thought it felt very like commercial and high stakes and I think my literary agent like would agree that's the book she signed me with. And I do feel like that part happened, um like pretty fast I think like within six months, maybe.

03:44.78 goodstory

Oh, wow.

03:45.70 Farrah

Which yeah at that time, it did it feel fast for me. The other side of it is that for this publishing journey, this is not my debut. If you Google me, you will not find that book because it didn't sell. So when that book was on submission, a piece of writing advice, like a lot of authors will give is work on your next project. And so that's what I was doing. I was writing another young adult book. This one was more of like the mystery thriller genre. And um when the dystopian young adult book didn't sell, a while later we went out with the mystery book, which also it didn't sell as well.

And I feel like shortly after that, there was a pitch opportunity for, I think, if this was a while ago, so let me try and remember, I think it was like a certain editor looking for young adult romance or contemporary. And so I had written some sample chapters and a pitch for that. And that also didn't sell. So I think at that point, I was like, man, and am I going to ever do this? What am I doing wrong?

05:02.95 goodstory

Yeah!

05:04.21 Farrah

Is it me? And I think you know as I've gotten older and just sort of like reflected back on that time, it really is like a mix of things. You know, an editor has to connect with it. And not only an editor has to connect, but then they got to take it to like the big bosses and the publishing company and it's just like there's so many things that have to align in order for a book to sell and, you know, it just wasn't my time, but I kept going. And so the short of this whole part of my saga is the next book I wrote was a contemporary novel, a young adult novel called Twelve Steps to Normal. And that book would end up becoming my debut to my surprise, because it was like the least commercial book I had written at that point. Barking

05:56.68 goodstory

Yeah. Hi, doggy. We are a dog friendly. My kids have like come in when I've been doing webinars and like I categorically tell them, I'm like, when I'm doing something, you don't but they come in, they cheese, they don't understand why like people can't talk back. Anyway, so no worries at all.

Did your agent stick by you? I mean, was that kind of an anxiety of yours of like, hey, you know, am I ever going to sell? And is this person a champion for me?

06:36.66 Farrah

Yeah, she has been a champion, and she has stuck by me and was very supportive of like you know the next ideas. Even with Twelve Steps, I was again, I am still surprised because this debut came out for me in 2018, so it sold in 2016. And it is, I feel like, a coming of age, like, quieter contemporary story. And so she, you know, was still game to find the right editors for it and did find one who was passionate about it, and which was great because love her dearly. I think she's great. And so yeah, it worked out. It didn't go exactly the way I thought it would in my mind, or the way I maybe like hoped or wished it would. But yeah, I guess the advice I got give to writers is just keep going, just work on the next thing because you never know what will happen.

07:51.40 goodstory

Well, let's talk about that a little bit. So it seems like your first entry into the game was more trend forward. You called it high stakes. It was very commercial at the time because it was in that hot dystopian market that was raging around 2011. That didn't go. And then you tried another kind of genre project with a mystery thriller suspense idea. Then you tried contemporary realistic and that on proposal kind of didn't work out either. You finally found success in your true debut with something that you're saying, oh, it wasn't as commercial. It was a little quieter. I'm surprised that it played out this way. Why do you think that is? And is that maybe a blessing in disguise? Do you have kind of more of a genre sensibility about you as a writer? Or are you happier that you found a home in contemporary realistic?

08:54.88 Farrah

Um... I mean, I will say to that, I am glad I debuted in the contemporary space. And like when I reflect on it and look back, I'm like, oh, this makes sense because I was reading so much like contemporary.

09:09.50 goodstory

Well, I was going to say Sarah Dessen, that contemporary romance, very much grounded in our world, like small towns hanging out on the dock. It's been a long time since I've read Sarah Dessen.

09:20.53 Farrah

Yeah. I think you nailed it. But I mean, I do enjoy genre. I love writing just so many different things. And I know that it's smart. And a lot of times people want to like kind of brand you into one specific genre. But I enjoy like the challenge and just like the joy of writing, trying different things. But yeah, the two books that I have out now are both contemporary young adult. And that is also a space I enjoy writing in and like you know would hope to continue enjoy writing in.

10:03.45 goodstory

So I think a lot of writers, when they're at that place where you were in 2011, 2015, whatever, they try to be commercial. And they may not know what that means, they may not—they have ideas about the market. So you were looking at the market. You took your swing at commercial. What does the process in your head look like for creating a story when you're like, Oh man, I'm going to make this as commercial as possible. And maybe some of your other ideas that are quieter, like do you, do you have a different approach?

10:43.75 Farrah

You know I don't know if I think I was doing it consciously when I was writing those first two books.

10:48.33 goodstory

Hmm.

10:50.57 Farrah

I think it was just like, here's the idea. It came to me and it just like happened to be like a more commercial idea. I would say like if you ask me now as a writer, I do think I'm a little bit more intentional with it. If I have an idea for a story, I'm like okay like what's the genre? What are the stakes, what are the turning points? You know, all the story beats kind of like thinking about it a little bit more critically than I was in my earlier stages of the career.

11:21.09 goodstory

So how do you approach a story idea? I'm not asking where you get your ideas because I think that a lot of people think that's an asinine question and because it's like, I don't know. You know, they just, they come sometimes. But it does sound like you are more, you said intentional, you plan a little bit more. Are you an outliner? Like how do you approach? So you have a nugget, right? You have a nugget in your hands and what, what does Farrah do next?

11:50.69 Farrah

Yeah. How do I approach story? Great question. I would say now as a writer, I feel like in the earlier stages, I think I was more of a pantser, like here's the nugget and I'm just going to run with it and see like where it goes. And that was, I think a little bit harder approach because I, you know, yeah I would get stuck at a certain point. And I think now I at least try and use, you know, like Save the Cat. Just reading, ah you know, reading a little bit more craft books than I was in the earlier stages in my career. And also I started doing screenwriting like four years ago and that really helped me focus on like the structure and plot of it all and like, kind of nail the beats.

So if I'm approaching a story now, I'll at least have like, a one sentence plot that I hope will happen within like the beat sheet of a story and I'll use that as a my guide to writing the book and I think in all the cases where I've done this, I'll kind of have like this rough guide and I'll know where the story is going, like I'll know where it's supposed to end. I'll know where the middle is. And I know like what's going to happen, but sometimes things take me by surprise or I'll have like a character whose motivation changes or little things that happen in the story that take me by surprise that will kind of change the story a little bit from like what the original outline was.

13:44.58 goodstory

So you, by structuring your work now and taking more of an organized approach, you mentioned Save the Cat. Do you use Save the Cat, the Blake Snyder original or the Save the Cat Writes a Novel, the Jessica Brody adaptation?

14:01.93 Farrah

I've read both. I'm trying to think of what I did for this last book. I think it was the like Snyder approach.

14:13.31 goodstory

The OG.

14:14.84 Farrah

Yeah, and it was just, I forget where I found it. It must have been somewhere online. It was like a beat sheet that you could fill in yourself. And I was like, okay, here are the things that I know will happen or like should happen or I should be hitting these things.

14:28.37 goodstory

And so it's like the bumpers at the bowling alley. You try to hue pretty close to what you planned, even though, of course, you know, dialogue, individual scene, beat-to-beat moments are going to be, you know, fairly changeable as characters, you start to get to know your characters, you start to sort of massage those relationships. But you really like to plan. And once you have the plan, you stick to it?

14:58.20 Farrah

Yeah, I think for the most part. I think it helps having that plan or that guide just so I don't reach the middle of the book and then I'm like, and then what happens? Let me think about it forever and take a really long time finishing. But if I like take maybe a little bit of a longer time in the beginning stages thinking about things, then at least I'm like, OK, I know where this train is supposed to go.

15:24.10 goodstory

I had a client say one time that um when you outline, the thinking is already done and I have just clung to that for the longest time. I do think that there are different skills, right? You have the big structural thinking and it sounds like you've been really putting a premium on learning that, reading more guidebooks, doing some screenwriting to really internalize structure. But I love this idea of like, okay, the big picture thinking is done, I can do scene thinking, I can do character thinking, I can do dialogue thinking, description, setting thinking, all of that, and kind of the sentence level thinking, as you're composing, but the pieces are in place.

16:07.65 Farrah

Yeah. Oh, I do love that a lot. Yeah. The thinking is already done. So you don't have to go back to that thinking stage as you're writing it. Yeah.

16:17.50 goodstory

How do you power through that muddy middle? So structure, obviously, is your guide. What do you put in the structure of a middle to really kind of buttress that story? What do you think is important to hit in that long stretch?

16:35.11 Farrah

Yeah, um this is a great question because I still, I think even at this stage, struggle a little bit with middles because you got to make sure you know your character's journey and the stakes of what they're going through, the internal and the external, that you're still hitting, that that journey is still clear. And you're also kind of throwing maybe some like curveballs at them. I think um maybe for me, I would say, I don't make it easy for them, like always throw something to make it a little bit interesting because yeah, if it's too easy and the problems are too easy to solve, then everything the resolution kind of feels like it's happening maybe a little bit too early.

17:20.83 goodstory

And when you throw curveballs, subplots, I think you have a romantic subplot in the book that was released. We should probably give the titles of your book. So Twelve Steps to Normal, right?

17:34.73 Farrah

Yes. And then the book that came out this year, 2024, in March is called Cancelled. Both are contemporary young adult books.

17:45.89 goodstory

Yeah, so if you are planning a subplot or you are throwing a romance plot in there, um how do you pick? You know, because it can't be too far left field out of complete nowhere, these curveballs. How do you select a juicy sort of component of the story to kind of put into the mix?

18:09.24 Farrah

Ooh, how do I select the juicy components? I think it, I guess I can speak to Cancelled because that's my most recent book. In the opening chapter, it opens with like a teenage girl who's realized, essentially, she's been canceled, but it's for this thing that she didn't do. She's been falsely framed for this like video that's gotten leaked around her school. And so I thought, OK, who is the type of character who is equipped, I guess, to take on this journey and like what would her journey look like? And then sort of like looking at if I give this plot problem to this character, like what is she like? What type of person is she? What are her friends like, what is her romantic life like and her family life like? And I think that all you know is part of the contemporary genre anyway, um you know grounded in reality and also high school because you have your family and your friends and they're all part of your life at that stage.

And so yeah, I think character is really important and just kind of looking at like, what type of person is she? For this character, she was very much like a fix it girly. She was like, I can solve all my problems. And, um, I was like, okay, well, if she's, you know, then what is like the internal problem? And, you know, part of that was like, does she you know have trouble reaching out for help? And um so yeah I guess all that to say is like really taking a look at like who your character is, getting to know them like one of your friends, and taking and figuring out like why they are the ones to go on this journey and how they will handle all the problems that you're about to throw at them as an author.

20:06.72 goodstory

I love that. So you shape the plot. It's like why this character for this story, right? Did she come into your head clearly with this concept for Cancelled or was it the scenario and you kind of built a character for the scenario?

20:25.82 Farrah

I think it was a little bit of both because I had this opening chapter where this character you know shows up to this Halloween party in a banana costume. And I was like, who is this character?

20:36.24 goodstory

Love that.

20:37.85 Farrah

Because that could not be me in high school. That was absolutely not me. But I just kind of loved, OK, then she's probably confident, maybe like a little bit sure of herself, and you know what happens when that confidence is kind of like thrown, and how does she handle it? So that was one portion of like that popped into my head. And then the other portion was more of the plot. Like, what if, you know, you know, she wasn't this, it was incorrect? Like the, the video that is getting blamed on her is like incorrect. And, and then how do you go about fixing that issue? So, for that book is particularly, it was, I would say just a little bit of both.

21:20.93 goodstory

That's great. I want to talk about stakes. Here, it seems like obviously for any teen, reputation is huge. Their social lives, kind of the esteem of their family, even though they don't want to admit that they care, you know. So how did you raise the stakes and also kind of challenge her, how did she maintain agency as a character? Because this is something like when something so big and so external happens and esteem is sort of in the eye of the beholder. So a lot of other characters hold the keys to whether she has her reputation or not, was it a challenge to make her still empowered as a protagonist and proactive as a protagonist when all of this was kind of happening to her?

22:18.79 Farrah

Yeah, I think so. And because I was aware like that the things that were happening to her, I wanted her to kind of go about it and like, be proactive, but also make mistakes along the way. Because you know, just as humans, we are not perfect. And also, me in high school and just think you know when you're young like you're also like making mistakes and like that's okay because that's how we learn. That was like one thing that was on my mind because you know that I was like this this book isn't like a life-or-death situation. It is you know, it's grounded in reality and it's high school but also it's like high school can be feel so insular that it can feel so much bigger um and the stakes I think can feel like higher, especially if your reputation is questioned and you know people are mad at you and you're still trying to like get into college and deal with all these other things. I forget what the question was.

23:20.57 goodstory

I forget what the question was too, but there are so many good things to pick out of your response. There's sort of the perceived stakes, but I think that is where your young adult characters live. Everything feels a little heightened. And do you have any challenges kind of tapping into that mindset? How do you thread the needle between this feels very real, this feels high stakes and maybe melodrama because it could easily veer into that territory.

23:54.72 Farrah

Yeah, wait, this is actually so funny that you asked me about melodrama because I spoke to a friend of mine as a teacher, and she has some high school interns over the summer that she's mentoring. And I talked to them over Zoom yesterday. And a question was like, how do yeah how do you make it dramatic without being melodramatic? And I was like, this is a great question. I have to like think about this for a second. ah

24:19.10 goodstory

I'm so glad we're getting version 2.0 now that you've had some time to marinate with it.

24:24.43 Farrah

Yeah. Um, I can only speak from like my personal experience writing and as a writer, but, um, I was like, how do I tap into things that can heighten the drama, but it doesn't feel cheesy or it doesn't feel corny and it doesn't feel inauthentic? And I think I was just going back to what, yeah, like what feels authentic from my main character and like how would she go about this in an authentic way while still, you know, throwing some problems at her and like having her create some problems too, because again, you know, humans aren't perfect. So I think I don't have like the one golden answer to this, but if something is not hitting authentic for you, for your story, if it feels like a little corny or cheesy, I think like really listen, maybe listen to that gut feeling would be my advice.

25:20.85 goodstory

Do you feel pressure kind of in that vein writing YA and sort of passing that authenticity sniff test with a younger audience?

25:33.50 Farrah

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I would say I feel pressure as you know, a 30 something writer writing—

25:41.49 goodstory

Not to give you a complex. I feel like your face was just like, oh, do I have to start thinking about that?

25:51.44 Farrah

I mean, yeah, I think you hope that you're doing a good job and tapping into the right things and the right themes.

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26:03.12 goodstory

And so it seems like your first book deals with addiction and is a little bit heavier. This one deals mostly with social relationships. Are you braiding all kind of like—do you find yourself focusing on one over the other? Do you try to build kind of everything into this person's life? How do you flesh out what's going on around them and how comprehensive you get.

26:35.03 Farrah

Yeah, I guess speaking to Twelve Steps to Normal, which is my debut novel, I am or I was the child of an alcoholic growing up. And so there's some things that I went through that like internalized that I think kind of come out as like themes or character journeys and both books—I think in both Cancelled and Twelve Steps to Normal, something I was really looking at whether it was like subconsciously or consciously, maybe a mix of both, was like the idea of shame as a theme. Twelve Steps was, you know, a character who was experiencing shame of having an alcoholic as a father and like the recovery process and like what life looks like after and for Cancelled it was a character who was like experiencing this insular high school shame something she didn't do.

27:37.46 goodstory

There was a friendship wrinkle, wasn't there? The banana was hooking up with somebody's ex-boyfriend and so that threw a friendship into turmoil.

27:47.58 Farrah

It was, yeah. So my main character is falsely accused of hooking up with her ex-best friend's boyfriend, and that was just you know another layer of drama, and they had already had a friendship falling out. I think friendship in both books is something I like to include as sort of like an ensemble cast because I think it's fun and you know in high school like friends are so important to like your experience and having people in your corner in your circle.

28:27.61 goodstory

I like this potential for stakes there because I'm imagining that it's like getting a divorce. Half the friend group goes with one person, half the friend group goes with the other person, and now they're kind of like two teams, rivals.

28:45.17 Farrah

Yeah. Yeah. I think for Cancelled, it was more of like the student body who didn't really like know the main character versus like her and her friends. And yeah, like I think that would have such a huge impact on someone who's already dealing with the stress of like exams and college decisions and all of this that you're experiencing at that age.

29:10.30goodstory

I'm so glad that I'm not in high school anymore and can like choose my friends. Like I don't have to, like other than my children who sometimes, are a problematic element. I don't have to be surrounded by anybody I don't want to be surrounded by.

30:06.54 Farrah

Exactly. Exactly.

30:09.09 goodstory

So romance, especially right now, romance is having such a moment in YA. And I have clients who come to me aspiring writers and they're like, I just feel like I'm dead in the water if I don't include a romance in my young adult manuscript. Would it be better if it was a romantasy because that's also very, very popular now. Do you feel that that is a requirement and is that one of your strengths or do you just kind of do it because that's what kids are experiencing or do you do it because you feel you have to or are you really excited about it? What's the deal with romance?

30:55.06 Farrah

Okay for me, well, first of all, I will say, I don't think it's a requirement. I don't think it has to be a requirement, like write what you like. And you can, you know, you can create stakes and points of tension without romance. For me personally, I like romance a lot. In the two books that I have published now, I would kind of say that romance is probably like the C story, we're talking about like A, B, and C story.

31:21.40 goodstory

For those of us who are not steeped in screenwriting and theory, can you tell us what those are?

31:30.08 Farrah

I can try to the best of my ability. I am no expert, but I will say, I did take a TV structure writing class at the beginning of this year. And I would encourage like all writers to take a structure class of any kind, because it is helpful just seeing information presented in different ways. For example, I think like Cancelled the A story is like figuring out the mystery of who wants to frame her and kind of getting her reputation back and the B story is some drama she's dealing with her family. And the C story is like the slow burn romance, like kind of—do I call it like a forbidden romance? I think there's like some, yeah, some drama and stuff that gets in the way of that too. So it wasn't like the, you know, when you pick up a romance book, like the problems revolve around like the two main characters like falling in love.

33:09.10 goodstory

Will they, won't, they They're approaching one another, they're sort of retreating.

33:14.64 Farrah

Yeah. I love that. I eat it up. I love the genre and I love including it. I will say like this next book that I have coming out, which I think is going to come out next year. We're still in the phase of like editing and timelines and all of that. But it um this story is more like romance forward, like love triangle forward.

33:39.55 goodstory

Ooh.

33:40.64 Farrah

It's a little speculative too, and I think it was just like the nature of like what the idea was. And that's been a lot of fun to explore, and just as someone who's like read so much, you know even like we were talking about Sarah Dessen growing up, and it's like contemporary romance stories, and even like now reading contemporary romance and you brought up like fantasy romance and romantasy. I would say if the plot and idea and characters sort of lend itself to the will they, won't they of it all like falling in love, write it if it feels true to your idea and story, but don't feel like pressured to write it just because it feels like a trend in the industry right now.

34:37.32 goodstory

Yeah, I mean I think that goes back to your concept of authenticity. If it doesn't feel real if it doesn't feel true to either the audience or the story that you want to tell or your own passions and experiences, that's gonna come across on the page. So that's kind of my answer too. I mean, I love that we're on the same page, bad publishing joke. But yeah, I feel like for the people who really kind of hold their nose at romance, don't do it. It's not going to tickle the readers in the way that they like to be tickled. That sounded a little spicy given the context, but I found that the people who do include romance, who love romance, they admire romance. They don't think that it's like, ugh, romance, like, oh, so tropey, da da da. You know, they're actual consumers of romance, they're passionate about romance, and they include romance because they genuinely want to and I think that's the only way that it really works.

35:41.97 Farrah

Yeah, and also, tropes are fun.

35:46.19 goodstory

So yeah, some writers are not really into trends, don't really spend a lot of time learning the market or reading what else is out there. And they kind of hold their nose at tropes as well. What would you say to them? And how do you sort of, how do you pick the tropes that you want to work with? And where do you find them? I've had that question. Like, where do I find tropes?

36:14.35 Farrah

Oh, um, this is a great question. I think I would go back to like, looking at the idea and the story that you have. And, let me think about this for a second.

36:35.77 goodstory

While you think I'm just gonna plug tvtropes.org, it is an all-consuming wiki of just collections of all kinds of tropes, plot tropes, character tropes. I know it says TV and it is a lot of the sort of examples that they provide are from film and TV, but it just has every single trope that you could ever. It's overwhelming. The tagline is all-consuming culture wiki.

37:38.31 Farrah

Yeah, I think when I'm looking at tropes, I think I'm looking at like story first and going back to what we were talking about, what rings true to the plot and to these characters and like what they're going through. And when you are like looking at the middle, the murky middle, or the fun and games part of the story, I think that's where you can have a lot of fun with tropes, because I think tropes add stakes to story. I don't know if it's something that I personally have been like, OK, I'm going to pick like five tropes and make sure I can fit them in or I'm like just looking at the beat sheet. I think this is more of what I do just like looking at the story and figuring out like, oh, is this something, can I work this in here? Like, would that be fun? Would that be fun for me to read? But does it seem compelling? But yeah, I would be interested to hear if like other authors do that. They're like, okay, I want, I'm like really interested in like picking out these tropes and then formulating like a plot around the tropes. Cause I also think that could be a way to write stories, just not a way that I've experimented with.

38:51.49 goodstory

Yeah, so I actually I have an IP development company called Bittersweet Books with literary agent John Cusick and author Julie Murphy. And we say that the only thing we take seriously is the reader's experience. And that was a really new kind of way of approaching story for me. And for those of you who don't know, a book packager is idea first, concept first. And sometimes we think like right now we're working on a couple of dark romance trope concepts where we try to make them a little bit sunnier, a little bit more kind of mass appealing. And so we really do—we're like, OK, you know, we want to work with this trope and we want to give it kind of a spin. And it is a brand new way of working. And some people would, again, hold their nose at this idea of like crafting a book as a product instead of art. Oh, no!

But I do think the people who love tropes, the people who love certain elements, the people who want to use books to escape and relate and be entertained, that kind of fun and games sequence that you just mentioned, which comes from Save the Cat and is basically like playing out your premise, write the promise of the premise. It's supposed to be fun, especially if you're writing in certain categories or you're writing a premise that does have the potential for fun baked into it. And I think that's a big mindset shift for a lot of writers to not take it so seriously. I mean, take your craft seriously. Take the writing and your career and yourself as an author seriously, but it's supposed to be fun too.

40:44.82 Farrah

Absolutely. And, you know, it's great hearing about your experience too, because yeah, I feel like you can, you definitely can craft a story around a trope, like thinking of like fake dating, for example, like that whole problem within itself. Like, why are you fake dating? Like, what is the problems that both of these characters are going through that they need to fake date? And that's, um, yeah, it can be so interesting because it's something that, um you know, it's a trope. So it's been like written about before, obviously. But it can be done so many different ways and it's like fun. It's fun.

41:17.73 goodstory

You know, now that we're being so trope positive, I have to say fake dating is my least favorite trope.

41:26.49 Farrah

You know, I don't know if it's like in my top five. But yeah, i I still think it could be fun.

41:35.35 goodstory

You're right that it encompasses the whole plot, right? It has its expectations. It's kind of like genre expectations. We were talking about, I was talking about the bumpers at the bowling alley. There's actually a lot of freedom between those bumpers. Like some people think that that any kind of guardrail, any kind of like guideline or anything like that is stifling creatively, but actually if you just keep the guardrails in mind there, there's a whole bowling lane in between those guardrails, you can still do a lot, you just are working within certain self-imposed constraints and like genre constraints or trope constraints.

42:21.00 Farrah

Yeah, absolutely.

42:23.83 goodstory

So it sounds like you also do a lot of reading, which is great. One of my biggest kind of head scratchers is when somebody wants to be a published author, but they don't read. They don't want to pollute their creative well. They don't, you know, but it sounds like you are an avid reader. Do you read critically? Do you try to sort of pick up structure and do you sort of analyze while you read? And what do you read?

42:51.65 Farrah

I feel like I read, I am all over the place with reading, genre-wise. I mentioned romance, young adult, literary fiction, mystery, thrillers, like I'll read everything, especially if it comes like recommended from a friend. There's no limit to like what I will and won't pick up. I think in the beginning, before I really understood structure and story, I was just you know reading for fun. um But I do like to say, like no matter if you're reading a book or if you're watching a movie or if you're watching a show, all of these things, they're different mediums, but they're all still telling a story. And I think even if you're like I want to turn my brain off and like watch TV and I feel bad because I'm just wasting time watching TV. I'm like well think about like what are the beats that the story is hitting? Can you think about it like a little bit more critically and then you know you're still kind of like um what is the word I'm looking for, like understanding and learning about story. So yeah, in the beginning stages, I think it was more for fun. And then when I was trying to take myself a little bit more seriously, I was like, okay, like, what, ah how are these authors or, you know, screenwriters structuring things? AndI don't know if it would be like on on the more critical level, but just on the more like, now that I like have the story structure in my head and just seeing how are the others do it.

44:22.14 goodstory

Yeah, it'll ruin just mindless entertainment for anyone to try and read or watch more actively. But it's like, are you me? Because I can't, I won't sit down to watch anything unless I can kind of play along, you know unless I can. Oh, what are they doing here and da da da da da. And it just on the one hand, it's wonderful. On the other hand, it's like, I'd like to turn my brain off sometimes that would be just like it's overheating up there.

So you are in Los Angeles, and you are sort of looking at screenwriting, is that because you want to write for the screen as well? Or is it to bolster your novel work or a little bit of both? What's the dream?

45:11.30 Farrah

Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both. During lockdown in 2020, I joined a friend group that was made up of like friends who were doing screenwriting, whether they really had been in rooms or just starting or had something made. And um those friends like really helped me in the beginning stages, and even now, with my earlier scripts. But I think at that stage I was like, I'm just going to do this for fun because it's storytelling in a way that's a little bit different. And I'm like, can I write a whole story in like 30 pages for like a TV pilot? That sounds like an interesting challenge.

And then being in Los Angeles um and just being around the industry and being in Hollywood, it's inspiring seeing other people do it. So I'm like, yeah, like, why not? Why not try? So I am nowhere near, um you know, I think at any stage where, you know, I have something that's like getting made or something. I'm still just sort of writing for the fun of it and seeing where things go. But yeah, I think down the line, that would be a fun dream to have come true.

46:27.95 goodstory

And what formats are interesting to you? You mentioned like a half an hour format pilot. Are you like thinking about features? Are you thinking about limited series? Are you thinking about like something bigger and broader?

46:41.45 Farrah

I think the two things I wanted to try and challenge myself to write was a feature and a TV pilot. And I have a sitcom sample. Oh my god, say that 10 times fast. And I have a feature that desperately needs a lot of revising. But it was fun. It was really fun experimenting and you know trying my hand at both of them. Yeah.

47:10.45 goodstory

I love that. So, all right, as we wrap up here, Farrah, you have just published Cancelled in March 2024. You have another novel coming out, Young Adult with speculative and romantic elements, coming out maybe 2025. We'll see. We'll watch this space.

47:29.08 Farrah

We'll see, yeah.

47:31.37 goodstory

And of course, the glitter and stardust of Hollywood is sort of is sort of descending on you right now as you learn and grow as a writer, which I think is one of the coolest things, like you are not resting on your laurels. You're reading intentionally, you're learning storycraft from different angles. I think screenwriting is fantastic for anyone who wants to learn structure. I love that sort of Jessica Brody has run with it and sort of adapted it for the novel, but I feel like there are a lot of screenwriting Bibles that a lot of novelists just disregard, right? Because they're like, oh, that's not that's not my lane, I'm not interested in that. But I feel like there is such a wealth of knowledge. And yeah, you have to kind of disregard this like formulaic bias against screenwriting because it is as soon as you start getting into it. A lot of it seems very formulaic. But again, I think that there's so much to learn. And I love that you're doing that.

48:33.64 Farrah

Oh, thank you. Thank you.

48:37.07 goodstory

Well, thank you so much for joining us. Do you have any last word of advice? So we have be authentic. We have learn structure. What else do you want to leave writers with?

48:49.34 Farrah

Oh, my gosh. What do I want to leave writers with? No pressure.

48:52.73 goodstory

I hate this question, so I ask it because at least I'm not in the hot seat.

48:55.59 Farrah

Yeah. Of course, of course. I will say, you know, at the beginning, I was talking a little bit about my publishing journey and talking about like, yeah, it's not always easy. And I think like outward facing public facing, it can look like easy when you're seeing these deals. But you just never know what other writers and authors are going through, how many books or and how many agents, like you never know what people's struggles are to get to where they are. So I don't know as corny as it sounds like just continue to write the next thing if you really love it, if you really believe in it, just continue to write the next thing and um don't give up. Oh my god, I sound like a motivational ad but really like if you love it.

49:37.87 goodstory

I love a good bumper sticker. Don't even worry about it.

49:41.13Farrah

Yeah, don't give up and just know that it can be you can go through challenges and struggles, but I think also that's what makes the reward of it all like even sweeter.

49:53.26 goodstory

I love that. And notice two and a half manuscripts. I'm calling the partial a half manuscript, right? Two and a half manuscripts went on submission. The agent is not a silver bullet in all cases. These are the stories we don't hear, which was I went on submission and my project didn't sell, but you did something that a lot of people don't do in that scenario, which is you kept going. You had another idea. You learned your craft and you just sort of hunkered down for the long haul, which I think is truly, truly inspirational.

50:26.29 Farrah

Oh, thank you.

50:28.28 goodstory

Farrah Penn, it was a pleasure and a joy and dogs and lawnmowers be darned. We did it. Thank you so much for joining us. And here's to a good story.

50:43.15 Farrah

My God, thank you. This was so fun. I'm, again, honored to be here.

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