Thriller vs. Suspense... what's the difference? Heather Dixon, whose debut novel Burlington hits shelves this week, chats with Mary Kole about getting published and the appeal of suspenseful women's fiction. She also discusses plotting high stakes, developing character arcs, and writing "quiet stories."

Good Story Podcast Episode 37: Interview with Heather Dixon, Debut Fiction Author

Mary: Hello, this is Mary Kole with "The Good Story Podcast," all about the writing life, the publishing life, and everything in between. I want to thank our Good Story Company team. You can learn more about us at goodstorycompany.com, and I am thrilled to bring you today's show. Here is to a good story.

Hello, hello. This is Mary Kole with "The Good Story Podcast," and here I am with debut author of women's fiction thriller, Heather Dixon. Heather, thank you so much for joining us today. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Heather: Yes, thank you for having me. I am, as you mentioned, a debut author. My book is coming out in August. I also have a degree in English literature, so I've been a reader and writer my whole life and just started seriously focusing on novel writing in about 2018.

So, my book "Burlington" is about a mother of two young girls who moves to an affluent neighborhood with her husband and her kids. And she quits her job, ready to start a new chapter in her life. But when she gets settled, she quickly gets caught up in the drama and the lies of the rich and beautiful mothers that her daughters knew in school. And soon after, one of her only friends in the area goes missing, so she then has to take a harder, longer look at who these women are and she wants to be a part of their world.

Mary: That is awesome, and I think... We'll talk about women's fiction and what you see is the hallmarks for that category, but I do have this leading theory that a lot of women who are drawn to these stories are having a shift in their lives. They're getting married and changing roles. They're becoming mothers and changing roles. They're getting divorced. They're leaving a job. They're getting a job. And so that identity piece is, I think, pretty crucial to the category. I don't know if you agree.

Heather: Yeah, I think for me personally it was... The idea for this came from me moving to a new neighborhood and bringing my kids to school and seeing this whole new world that I hadn't been a part of yet. I was a mom of a young kid, but there was this whole dynamic that I didn't understand and so I just sort of wanted to explore it.

Mary: Yeah. Well, we'll talk about your book in a second. Let's [vocalization]. Let's rewind and talk about getting there because you've had... We were talking before we started rolling here, you've had a little bit of an unconventional or a non-mainstream path to your debut novel. So, please, take it away.

Heather: Yeah. So, I started writing in about 2018, and what I did first was just wrote a book without knowing what I was doing at all. So, I had been a reader all my life, so I thought I can do this, and I just put whatever on the page that I thought was supposed to be there. And I started querying it about a year later. I did go through the process of readers and editing, but then I queried it and realized early on that it was not ready.

So, I set it aside and started working on the next book. So, I wrote two more books, and it was the pitch for the third book that I wrote that got noticed in Pit Mad which was a Twitter event. So, the editor at the small publisher that picked me up in Canada, they requested it and then eventually offered me a deal. And so I went. I kind of skipped the agent route and went directly to small publisher in Canada.

I think my process had been...it was just a lot of practice with writing. So, I would write and write, and actually in there as well, when I realized I didn't understand anything about craft, I then picked up as many craft books as I possibly could get my hands on and studied "Save the Cat!" and "Story Genius," and "Creating Character Arcs." So, I took little bits from every craft book that I read to, sort of, come to understand how to put a book together.

Mary: And that structure piece is crucial with any kind of thriller element. And we'll talk about that in a minute, but it sounds like you pantsed your way through your first book, maybe your second, and it wasn't until a little bit later where you started being more intentional with some of the choices and discovering that structure underpins all of these things. So, was it like the blinds being thrown open and things started clicking at that point?

Heather: Yes, I think one thing I did notice was I would get feedback on the other books and even on the third book that eventually ended up getting acquired, but a lot of the feedback was around pacing. And I do remember someone else also kindly told me that I really needed to hit those beats, and I remember thinking, "Oh, my gosh, I don't even know what beats are."

And I really just thought I could just write without knowing the actual craft. So, that was the point where I went and started to really study what had to be where and when to keep a reader's interest.

Mary: Yeah, I think there's a quote, and I'm going to misappropriate it to Flannery O'Connor or something that says, "Everybody thinks they know what story is until they sit down to write one."

Heather: Yes. Oh, yes. That would be me.

Mary: It's a learning curve, but it sounds like you found your stride once you unlocked these structural aspects. And were you always writing in kind of the same vein of women's fiction, mystery thriller, suspense? What were some of your initial projects in a different category?

Heather: I've always tended to write more women's fiction. I'm really into character-driven as opposed to plot. So, I think for me the first thing I think about is who I want to tell a story about. And I would say I tend to really... The first idea that comes out of me is usually quiet. It's like a quiet type of book. And then I need to... Especially with "Burlington," the book that's coming out, I would say it's more suspense I think than thriller, but it definitely needs those plot points and the proper pacing. And I was more writing along women's fiction before that.

Mary: So, how would you define a quiet story? Because I think everybody has a slightly different idea of what is high-concept, what is upmarket, and all of these terms float around, but I want to ask because everybody kind of has their own flavor.

Heather: Yeah. Well, I'm in a Twitter group with some writing friends, and we all for a while felt like we were all writing quiet, because we would joke around and say like, "It feels like nothing huge is happening." But when we were writing our stories, we felt like big things were happening, but I think as you write more and more, you realize that the stakes have to be quite high and the action has to be quite exaggerated from real life. I think quiet to me would be less about car chases and dead bodies and that kind of thing, and more about an internal struggle, I think.

Mary: Yeah, but I think for women's fiction or suspense with a primary female character, you do have to have that depth, but it has to... I think stakes is really it because even if it feels like something big is happening, the plot has to also... You have to give the character something external, commencer it with that inner struggle.

Heather: Yes, 100% and I think that's something that is really tricky to figure out when you just start writing. For me, I think it took writing three books before I could really understand how to do it properly.

Mary: In your third book, you keep referencing and you're like, "Oh, that's the one that got attention." Would it then become your debut or was the third book a stepping stone?

Heather: Yeah, so the third book I wrote is the one that's going to become the debut.

Mary: Yeah, that's great.

Heather: So, let's talk about the direct-to-publishing path, and I think for our listeners who might not be familiar, there is a thriving indie publisher scene in Canada. And it's not really analogous to the U.S. publishing market. There are tons of indie presses in the U.S., but Canada has just a really notable small press community. And so, yeah, describe sort of what it's been like to go directly to a small press, what that has been like. Do you feel like you're missing out on anything or are you thinking maybe, "Okay, maybe an agent next time. Maybe the U.S. market"? And I'm not saying U.S. or agents are better in any way, shape, or form, but it's sort of like, are you happy? Is this something you'll build upon? What are you thinking?

Heather: Yeah. Well, I have, as I mentioned, that Twitter group of writing friends, and one of my friends in the group has an agent and got a deal with one of the Big Five Publishers and her book just came out in June. So, we were sort of going along the same path at the same time, only I was with a small publisher, and she was with Big Five. And what surprised me was a lot of our journeys seemed to be quite similar up until the point when the book came out. So, we both had the structural development edits, and copy edits, and had arcs sent out. And a lot of that was similar, and then now that her book has come out, she's going on book tours and giving talks and things like that. And so I think that stage of it is the only side that would likely be a little bit different with a small publisher.

So, to me, I was quite surprised to learn that it is very much like a traditional publisher, just on a smaller scale. And so the marketing and publicity will be on a smaller scale as well. But it has been a great experience. I've felt really happy with everything that's happened. The cover design, I got to collaborate on.

Mary: It's a gorgeous cover.

Heather: I love the cover. The cover designer is amazing. Yeah, and I've felt like it's been a good journey so far. So, I mean, I did try the traditional route because, when you start writing, I had in my mind that this is the way it's going to go. You get an agent. You get published with a big publisher. And then I had a friend who was also publishing with this Canadian publisher. It's called Rising Action. I talked to her about her journey. She was very happy with it as well. So, I thought, "Well, in the end, I really want my book in the hands of readers." So, this is the lifelong goal I've had, and it's all happening.

So, it's been a great experience. I think I would definitely not say that I'm not interested in an agent and the big publisher. And I just think that this was the route that my journey was taking me on, and so far, it's been incredible.

Mary: That's amazing, and it's such an incredible feeling. And to be clear, going with a big publisher or getting scooped up by a big publisher doesn't guarantee the book tour. It sounds like your friend's experience is a little bit singular. I really don't want to perpetuate this idea that, "Oh, you're going to be flown around the world on a private jet the second you sign with HarperCollins." That is also a little bit unusual, but it's interesting that you've been able to compare notes on the process. And will your publisher distribute into the U.S. market at all or will it be largely a Canadian availability?

Heather: So, it's going to be available in Canada and the U.S. It's on the Barnes & Noble site right now. It's pre-order. It's also available in the UK but it'll be in-store in Canada in our large book chain in Canada.

Mary: That's amazing. That's amazing distribution. So, all right, it's coming out. Are you working on another project? So, you checked the box. The big box that everybody listening wants to check, you checked it. Now what?

Heather: Yeah. Well, this is where my story is sort of a little even more convoluted.

Mary: I love it. Tell me.

Heather: So, that second book that I wrote and I had shelved, so I had queried it but I don't know if this is why. But I was querying it in 2020. The world had shut down and things were a little strange.

Mary: An understatement. Yeah, yeah.

Heather: Yeah, and it did well in terms of getting requests from agents. Nothing eventually came out of it in the time that I had decided it was time to shelve that. So, I shelved it and then left it from 2020 until last year. And that's when I saw there was a UK publisher who is digital-first. And, yeah, they were looking for manuscripts, so I sent them that book. And they offered on that book. And then because it had a very specific setting, they wanted me to write a second book. Yeah, so I now have this other two-book deal with this digital-first UK publisher. So, it's definitely not traditional, but along the way I've done a lot of research into which route and I've read all the articles on the different paths in publishing. And I think, for me, I'm like, well, I will have a book come out. I want to see how it goes, see how I feel about it, and see what the next step is after that.

Mary: I think that's really actually interesting, and it might seem convoluted but there's not just one path, and there's not just one path for one person, and there's not just one path for one project. There are digital-firsts. There are audio originals that people are selling. There are so many different routes you said. I care about getting my stories in the hands of readers or in the ears of readers if you ever go the audio route, and these are all means to an end, right? And I think it's so refreshing to sort of break from that path, which of course is desirable, right? Your friend is having a grand old time with the Big Five Publisher, but it's not the only route. And I think that people get a little bit in a mental box about it sometimes.

Heather: Yeah, I've said all along, I think it would be great to have a partner in my career. I'd like to make it a long-term career. And having a partner in my career would be fantastic, but I think along the way... I haven't gotten to that point yet, so along the way, I'm testing out these different waters and seeing how it goes.

Mary: Yeah, until they come along. It sounds like you are very open-minded, very proactive, trucking along. So, this will be relatable, I think, to a lot of writers. You had the first manuscript. That was basically a training ground, right? It may never see the light of day. It could. I've spoken to writers who've dusted off their first efforts, their sophomore efforts like you did with this one. So, the two questions that I get asked a lot, first, how do you know something is ready to submit?

Heather: Right. Well, I went through the path of you write it for as long as you think you need to write it until you can no longer...

Mary: You're so sick of it, you [crosstalk 00:18:50].

Heather: Yes, and then I have worked with freelance editors as well. It can be a little cost-prohibitive, but I had a chance to work with a freelance editor on my second book. I had some really wonderful advice. I took the manuscript away, worked on it again, I had beta reader, made revisions again. And I think, at some point, I just realized that it's gone through many revisions, I've re-written it, I've revised, and at this point, I can't do anything more with it. And that's when I feel it's ready to submit.

Mary: Yeah, it's going to do what it's going to do. You've gotten the feedback. I work as a freelance editor, so obviously I'm not going to say, "Don't do it." But I'm not biased at all in terms of recommending outside readers, whether they're beta readers, whether they're paid. But it ran its course for the development of it. No new ideas were forthcoming, it sounds like.

Heather: Right. Yeah. Yeah, and I felt like it was a strong book in my standards. I felt like I was happy with it, and I got it to where I could get it. But after working with editors on the books that are now going to be published, it's interesting to see how much they can help you with what you think is already a really strong book.

Mary: Well, you've also learned a lot too. I was going to ask you, you got to that point of readiness with the second manuscript, and now you've had the opportunity to revisit it in kind of post-acquisitions, kind of more professional setting. So, I was really curious. So, it's probably been four years since you last actively dug into it. You're a new person as far as writing goes. You've had a lot of time away from it during which your brain has maybe been doing back burner stuff about it and thinking about it. And now you have a new raft of feedback on it. So, are you just blown away by how different it seems to you now?

Heather: Yeah, I think when I re-read it again after not touching it for so long, I feel like I'm a different writer now.

Mary: You are.

Heather: Yeah, so when I went through it, I was making a lot of changes, because it was even just, sort of, sentence structure or there was a whole plot point that I thought, "How did I miss that?" But I think, for me, I have noticed that time away is one of the most important things that I can do when it comes to my writing. And I used to feel like I was in a rush, so I used to hear, "Take time," and someone said four weeks, six weeks.

Mary: Nobody does it. Nobody does it at first.

Heather: No, because I thought, "I don't have four to six weeks to not look at it." And I've realized now that that is the best thing for me is really getting away from it and coming back with fresh eyes. And I can't do that in a week or two weeks. I need a lot of space.

Mary: And so let me ask you this. When you felt it had run its course, you went on submission with it the first time. It didn't end up doing what you wanted. It didn't end up getting interest. How do you decide to put something away? That's another question that I get a lot.

Heather: Yeah. Well, so the funny thing is it didn't get interest in terms of an offer, but it did have quite a few requests like full requests and some partial requests and R&R. The reason I usually set something aside is because when I'm querying, I go on to the next project to take my mind off of the querying process. So, what I found was, after I had queried it for a certain amount of time, I think I could have given it some space, gone back to work on it again, started querying again, but I set it aside because I was now writing this other one and I was interested more in the other one.

So, I've had friends in my writer group who have stuck with that first or second manuscript, and they just keep going back to it. And I think that's great. That's probably a really good way to revise and work on your work, but I sort of wanted to move on to the next. So, I set it aside whenever I was ready to move on.

Mary: And I think that's really valuable experience too, because they're never truly gone because they're in a drawer. You can dust them off again once you have some time or some additional insight or maybe the market was not interested in a zombie story back then because it was saturated, but these things are cyclical and now you want to dust it off. So, it's never truly gone. I do think that some projects do run their course. They are more a learning experience, like maybe your first manuscript was. But if there's something there and if you're getting like R&Rs, that's a revise and resubmit letter from agents, and there's potential interest, you don't have to kind of dig in and give it all you've got right in that moment. You can take a pause like you did and still have a good outcome with that project.

Heather: Yeah, yeah. And I think for me, I learned that doing the writing was the best practice for me as well. So, I also remember hearing a published author speak once, and she said she wrote three books to get her published with her first one. And I remember also thinking like, "Oh, my goodness, that is so much work. How can you do that?" And then I got into the process and realized, "Well, it's practice, and it's making me better." And even if that first manuscript will go nowhere ever, but it was practice, so it wasn't wasted time at all.

Mary: No, and people are so sick of me saying this, but I say no time spent writing or reading is ever wasted. You need that downtime sometimes. You need to take breaks. You need to make a pivot. But it's all grist for the mill, and I can already see some people rolling their eyes because I say that all the time but it's true. Writing is one of those practices where it's like yoga. I got really upset at first when I started doing yoga. Not like I do a ton of yoga, but when the teacher kept calling it a practice and I was like, "Uh-uh, I don't want to practice. I want to win, you know?"

Heather: Yeah.

Mary: And that's like you saying, "I don't have four weeks, I need to do this yesterday." But the more you get into it, I think that initial fervor dies down a little bit and mellows into something more mature that every writer... You can listen to all the writing advice in the world. You can read all the writing reference books, but it doesn't click until you go through it yourself.

Heather: Yeah, that's exactly what happened with me. I was in a rush, and I just thought like this has to happen and I have to make it happen quickly. I don't know why I thought that and then...

Mary: Human nature probably.

Heather: Yeah. After going through the process of having a lot of interest but never quite getting there, I thought, "Okay, I think now it's time to take time and treat this as an art and a craft and remember why I really love writing," because that was why I started because I love writing and I can't imagine not doing it. And I thought to myself, would I still write if nothing ever gets published? And to me, the answer was yes. So, that was when I realized I need to just calm down a little bit and take it a little slower.

Mary: Yeah, that internal pressure can be really tough to wrangle with, but I don't think that a lot of good comes from the stressed writer trying to meet an arbitrary deadline. You can stress about the real deadlines later, but those self-inflicted deadlines aren't very helpful to the creative process.

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So, let's talk about your category. So, you say suspense, I called it a thriller. You were like, "Mm, that's not quite it." What's the difference to you?

Heather: I think the reason I say that is because I think thriller readers, they expect huge twists and "didn't see that coming" kind of turns. I heard a podcast refer to what I feel "Burlington" is. Sorry, they referred to a category called like neighborhood drama. And I was like, "Oh, okay." Yeah, I think that's what I've written, which is neighborhood drama. It's suspenseful but I wouldn't say it's as thrilling as thrillers that are currently out there right now. So, that's why I tend to...I don't want readers to be disappointed, so that's why I shy away a little bit from the thriller.

Mary: I think it's very important in categories to pay attention to audience expectations. And a lot of writers sort of balk at that a little bit, but if you're writing romance and you don't have a happily ever after or happy for now, unless it's like very, very intentional, you're in trouble. And so I think it's interesting that you're cautious about thriller. To me, thriller is... So, mystery is what happens. Thriller is more something bad is going to happen unless I intervene or whatever.

But you do have a missing friend. Even if it's not just an international cabal of evil, something, or other behind it, it is a group of Stepford-type people or people with secrets perpetrating something, it does seem like there's an element of danger for the character to get involved in. Are the stakes life or death or are they not?

Heather: Yeah, I would say they are, but I guess I remember reading... Oh, my goodness. I can't remember the name of... Celeste Ng's really big book.

Mary: Oh, yeah, the "Little Fires Everywhere," which the colors of your cover reminded me of that cover a little bit.

Heather: Yeah, I remember... Well, I love Celeste Ng very much, and I read "Little Fires Everywhere." And I remember hearing someone refer to it as a thriller, and afterwards I was surprised because I thought, "Oh, that's not what I thought of as thriller." But I guess, when you describe it that way, yeah, it does have those elements.

Mary: Well, it's the ticking time bomb with the baby story. And we're building up to this sort of family fracture. Even if it's not murder. I think murder and thriller tend to go kind of hand in hand in people's perception. Yeah, that's an interesting one because to me I'm like, okay, ensemble cast. Definitely some suspense, some pretty incendiary—pun fully intended—kind of dynamics. We have the racism. We have secrets coming to light. We have kind of different people coming at different situations from different angles. So, there's like a ticking clock. It gathers momentum as everything ties together. And I think that the multiple chronologies, multiple points of view contributes to all of that. But, yeah, is that suspense?

With your pitch for your book, I'm thinking of... And you've been comped to Liane Moriarty. So, I'm thinking of "Big Little Lies" as kind of the newcomer to this established society, social circle, the school kind of setting. And I'm also thinking about Kristen-Chandler's "The Husbands," which is... there's something rotten in this planned community. "The Husbands" does have life or death stakes, so does "Big Little Lies." But are you not building to a big reveal? You don't obviously have to say what it is, but is it predicated on some kind of secret?

Heather: Yes. Yeah, there is. Yep, there is. And that's why I think it has been falling in this suspense-thriller category. So, I do think it falls along a lot of the same lines of what people would expect. I think the thriller category is so interesting because there are so many out there that are very dramatic and really big stakes. I feel like those are often very plot-driven. So, I think the only difference with "Burlington" is I feel I tried to go a little bit more character-driven. Not to say that these really well-done thrillers out there are not character...

Mary: I think they all are. That's just table stakes in this category.

Heather: Right, yeah. Yeah. I think it's funny because when people ask me what I write and I would say women's fiction, sometimes that confused people, because they didn't really understand women's fiction and sort of equate it immediately with romance, which is great, which is fine. But mine don't tend to have romance in them, but I'm writing about a woman, usually protagonist, who is kind of leading a regular life and then something happens that is out of the ordinary that puts them into this journey. And it's often around the lines of things that we all kind of want. We're looking for belonging [crosstalk 00:34:51]. Themes of belonging, feeling valued and heard and finding your place. Motherhood is a big theme I write about in all my books as well.

So, I do feel like it's been sort of hard for me to narrow down exactly what I write. And maybe that's why I have trouble with saying, "Yes, it's this," or, "No, it's this," because I didn't set out to write one specific thing.

Mary: Yeah, but I do think that it is a category, this women's fiction leaning thriller or suspense, and I do think suspense is a little lighter than thrillers. So, you know, you can sort of dip your toe in the water of suspense and labeling yourself, but it's a huge category, huge category right now. And so it seems like whether or not you feel comfortable claiming a label, you're in a hot vein in the market just based on who you are, and what you're interested in, and what has really developed around that type of story.

And what do you think is driving readers to not just women's fiction like an Emma Straub that's very concerned with relationships and kind of intergenerational stuff, but to these darker undercurrents, the danger that is sort of stitched into some of these thriller- suspense stories?

Heather: Well, I have this part to me where I think...say I'll be sitting at the soccer field watching my kid play soccer. And then I'm like, "Oh, what if this happened right now?" And so I have this side to me where I always wonder like life is just going along normally and then what if this happened. And I think these books kind of explore that, and they're very... You can't imagine it happening. So, I think reading about it... To me, it's always been also escapism. It's just what I absolutely love to do is be entertained and read a story that entertains me but also makes me think and also makes me feel kind of seen and heard as well.

Mary: I mean, we joke about it now, but murder documentaries, true crime podcasts, do you think that it's a way of exploring some of our anxieties around change and around uncertainty? And this what if question, that's not kind of book fodder for me. When I ask the what if question, I feel like my anxiety kind of flaring up, and I feel like whenever we put voice to that and we add some larger-than-life story, reveals, and secrets, and kind of juicy stuff, is that also a way of reaffirming that we're safe and that if something bad happened, we could make it? We could be resilient, we could triumph.

Heather: Yeah, I actually think that's definitely... I think people like to know what happened so that they can understand it and be sure that it won't happen to them. So, I read about, can you imagine your child being taken away from you? And I'm going to read this story to see what happened and to make sure that I know this won't happen to me. And I think that when it's in the form of book or TV or movie or podcast, there feels like there's a little bit of separation like this isn't real. So, I know I'm safe. But I think sometimes, too, some of the books like this thriller and suspense, they explore sides of you that I think you don't want to admit are there as well and in an exaggerated way again. So, you can feel like, "Well, I'm not like that, so I'm okay."

Mary: And how do you balance? Because if a character's all prickly or all dark side, that can be problematic for readers to hook into unless they're feeling morally superior. But you don't really want to feel morally superior to your main character. You want to relate. So, how do you balance that when you're creating a character who does make mistakes and who does have unkind thoughts that none of us want to really admit to or whatever the case may be?

Heather: Yeah, that is a tricky, ongoing process, I think, because I have heard in the past in early, early drafts that a character maybe was unlikable. So, I think I've just had to really focus on little details that will make readers feel connected to them.

Mary: Like what? Give me an example.

Heather: Well, if I'm writing a friend or something, I try to think of someone that I think has qualities that I really admire and try to put those little details into the character, or for example in "Burlington," I felt insecure about certain things when I was a new mother, and so I wrote in details of the way I felt and the things I wore and that kind of thing to make the character feel more vulnerable and real and maybe somebody else out there will relate to that.

Mary: Yeah.

Heather: Yeah, those kind of details.

Mary: I think my favorite moments when I read are when I've never quite seen that in a book, you know? And I think we're having a lot of conversations about representation and people recognizing themselves in stories, but it's like, "Somebody else had that thought? That's such a weird thought." And it's not even like the broad stroke stuff sometimes. You're right. I think it's the relatable specifics that really hook a reader. How do you go about manufacturing stakes? Because you've learned... Now, you want to shy away from saying, "I don't have the highest stakes in the world. It's not a thriller per se." You're kind of softening that characterization a little bit, but you still have learned that that high stakes kind of are make or break if that's fair to say. So, how do you create them? Because I think you're right, but I think a lot of writers struggle with, "Well, what even is that and how do I do it? Because I know it's important but I don't... Help me."

Heather: Yeah. Well, I remember when I was reading about creating character arcs, I think a lot of writers know about what does your writer want, what do they need, what's going to stand in the way of them getting what they want. But then I also read that...someone I think had said, "What is the absolute worst thing that could happen to your character? And at what moment?" Not just the worst thing but at the worst time. And I thought that's a really good way to raise stakes because it's very easy to think about a character and once you know them, to think, "Oh, yeah, well, this would be the absolute worst thing that could happen to them. So, how can I work that in a realistic way at the right time?" I think timing is very key as well.

Mary: So, that strikes me as more the climactic sort of... The pressure that comes at the worst possible time, and I think that's amazing to work in. What about smaller stuff? You can't just have one sort of instance of high stakes, right?

Heather: Right. Yeah. When I was learning about structure, I learned that there are some certain points. They can be called different things, I think, but there was the inciting incident was the moment where something big has to happen, high stakes. And then first key event is what I heard it called as well like right before the midpoint. And then it might've been second key event or it might've been right before the climax again. There were all these little parts where you had to keep raising stakes, and something had to change, and something had to happen that caused change. So, I think in each story, that's what I'm trying to... Before I start, I try to think about what is going to happen at certain points, and that's the way I can really fill in the rest and keep the stakes high.

Mary: What are you pulling from in your toolbox? So, it can't all be unexpected events. They have to come from within the story and within the character. And the character has to be proactive too. So, are you pulling on developments in the character? Are you pulling on secrets? Are you pulling on reveals? Are you pulling on character relationships? Are you pulling on the truck that barrels through town and kind of messes everything up? What are some of your favorite kind of tactics?

Heather: Well, I love books with secrets. So, I do love family secrets especially. So, I like to use the secrets. I like to pull on the character...something they learn about themselves and something that they... A realization. And then sometimes it is a big plot point. It is a big "this just happened." And I think, for me, it depends on the story, but I tend to really... I like the secrets, and I like the character reveals about themselves.

Mary: Yeah, and it's interesting to sort of mix those up. And are you a big outliner now? Now that you've pantsed, you learned all the stuff, are you sort of now fully plotter or is it a mix of both?

Heather: I'd say I'm a mix of both because I like to have an idea of what's going to happen, at what point to keep my story going, so that I don't sort of flounder. But things do usually change as I start writing and go along. But I definitely need some kind of structure, a little bit of structure or else I do just sort of... I flounder when I write.

Mary: And how many characters do you play with? Because we sort of were talking about "Little Fires Everywhere." That's more of an ensemble cast. It follows three pretty distinct narrative pieces and weaves them together. Is yours a little bit more focused on the one protagonist and some secondary characters?

Heather: Yeah. Yeah, it would be mostly her story. And it's one point of view. And then there are friends, and then there's her family, but for the most part, I focused on just the one point of view. I would love to write... I love ensemble cast books and movies. I think that seems really difficult though. Really difficult.

Mary: And how do you design those people? What is your thought process when you're like, "Okay, she needs some friends, she needs some enemies, and she needs some problematic family members." What's your approach with teasing out some personalities?

Heather: Well, I'm not sure if everyone does this and how long you can do it for, but I do pull from real life quite often and so the husband in this book was kind of modeled after my husband. So, my husband's name is Andrew and the guy in this book is Drew, so I didn't even really try very hard in that point to change it.

Mary: Is he flattered or horrified by his portrayal?

Heather: I'm not sure. So, actually the funny thing was that at first the husband character was not really well-liked in the book in early readers, and I think it's because I knew him so well that I didn't put enough of him on the page, because I knew him and I thought, "Oh, well, everybody knows." So, I had to put more of him on the page to get him to that stage. And with friends, with kids, I pull little details from real life. So, my kids have this certain aspect to them. I put it into the kids in the book. Even for the main character has a lot of parts of me as well.

Mary: Is it going to be tough to write? So, like you said, it's not an inexhaustible fountain of friends and family that you can pull from forever. Is it going to be tough to attempt? And do you have any interest in attempting a character who's very, very different where you have a little bit less of that foundational life experience?

Heather: I think that's what I enjoy a lot about writing too is the challenge. So, moving on to the next, what can I do next? And what will be more of a challenge? And getting it right. Definitely getting it right. If you're not telling your story specifically or a story you can tell specifically, if you are going to tell something a little bit of your realm of understanding, then it's important to definitely get it right. So, yeah, I would love to work on multiple characters who are very different. I think it's deciding what I want to challenge myself with next.

Mary: I love that. Heather Dixon, thank you so much for coming on. Everybody, go check out "Burlington," your debut. And thank you for sharing your path, and I'm excited especially to see where you go next. You already have kind of a duology in the works, but, yeah, I have no doubt it's going to be interesting. And thank you so much for sharing these thoughts. I think you just have so much to say about all the different elements of craft. So, I just really...

Heather: Thank you so much.

Mary: I really appreciate it.

Heather: Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it too. It's been great. I love chatting about this stuff.

Mary: Amazing. Well, thank you all for listening. My name is Mary Kole, and here's to a good story.

Thanks so much for joining me. This has been "The Good Story Podcast" with me, Mary Kole. I just want to offer a heartfelt thank you and bit of gratitude to the entire Good Story Company team. You can find out more at goodstorycompany.com and of course to all of you listening and taking the time to really dig into these conversations with me. This has been "The Good Story Podcast," and here's to a good story.

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