CEO of independent publisher Girl Friday Productions Leslie Miller, aka "LAM" joins the Good Story Podcast to talk all things publishing, marketing, and building your platform as an author. Having worn all the different hats, she discusses the differences between traditional publishing, self-publishing, indie publishing, and hybrid publishing, and how to know which option is right for your project, whether that's children's books, literary fiction, genre fiction, memoir, nonfiction, or thought leadership and business consulting books. Finally, we dive into social media, and the looming question for all authors: Should you have a TikTok?

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Podcast Transcript:

Mary: Hello, this is Mary Kole and "The Good Story Podcast," helping writers craft a good story. With me, you will hear from thought leaders related to writing, and sometimes not, about topics important to writers of all categories and ability levels. Here is to telling a good story.

Hello, this is "The Good Story Podcast." My name is Mary Kole and with me we have Leslie Miller, otherwise known as LAM, CEO of Girl Friday Productions. Leslie "LAM," welcome. Please tell us a little bit about yourself.

Leslie: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. It is terrific to be in conversation with you. Little bit about me. I started in publishing after dropping out of an English PhD program that I thought was going to be my dream. And it wasn't. It was a little actually removed from... We didn't read books. We read papers about books. We studied Marxist theory. I was like, "But where are the books? I love the..."

Mary: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Leslie: And it also seemed... It just wasn't quite for me. And so I left after my master's and then I needed a job and I got a job. Luckily, I saw an article about Seal Press in the Seattle Paper, and they were a feminist independent press, they still are a feminist press publishing great books, and I thought that sounds fantastic. And I didn't know anything about it. And I called and said, "Do you have any jobs?" And my now work wife of more than 20 years, Ingrid Emerick, is the one who hired me to Seal.

I knew nothing about publishing. I was hired as the publicity director in a department of one, as it is with many small companies, but it was a fantastic start to publishing because, in a small company...well, I believed in the product. I believed in the writers. It was writing by and for women. I was all in. And you learn everything. You learn about cover design. You learn about publicity, and marketing, and the P&L, and the editorial process. And so Ingrid and I stayed through the acquisition of Seal by...now they're owned by Perseus. And after a while for various reasons, including, we have talked before about being mothers, but about balancing work and family.

Mary: What's that? What's this work-life balance I keep hearing about?

Leslie: Well, we didn't want it to be hostile. So we thought there's something that's a little more comfortable and allows us... We just didn't believe we couldn't do both. You can't do both perfectly, but you could at least be supported in trying to do both, and that's what we wanted to do for each other. And so we created Girl Friday in 2006. And because we are both developmental editors, we have worn marketing hats. I have been a ghost writer. I have written my own books and short form work. And also I went back and got my master's in business too, because the fact of the matter is, at some point, I shifted over and I'm like, "I'm actually not an editor and a writer. I am the CEO, and it's my job to really take care of these people and grow this company." So now I'm one step removed from the writers, but I'm steeped in it. And it's been fantastic. I love it.

Mary: I do think that there is a bit of an unease in the writing community and the, sort of, artist and creator... You know, we talk about multiple roles, multiple hats. There's an unease when it comes to a book is a product. A publisher is a business. I am a marketer of my product. I'm sure we will talk about all of that because I am very much in this, sort of, like it is a business. Like we do want to create beautiful things. We want to put ideas into the world. We want creative expression for ourselves as writers, but we live in a capitalist society. This is a reality. So can you define what Girl Friday is?

Leslie: The elevator pitch or the cocktail party pitch that I used to give when I went to cocktail parties...

Mary: Let's do it.

Leslie: ...was that we made books for a huge variety of people. And then people say, "You make books?" And I was like, we do. We help people who are independently published make books. We make books for traditional publishers, and you'd never know that our fingers had been there just like a ghost writer. We have publishing partnerships where we do editorial services on hundreds of books a year for certain people. We have recently started a hybrid publishing imprint and work with a fantastic distributor with Two Rivers with Ingram. And so now we have even more channels for people to sell their books and access readers.

And so I think the constant about Girl Friday is that we've actually shifted, and, as a business owner, it's crazy making but it's also points to, to reference your incredibly important point about books being a product, this is a business. If I have one criticism of these lovely traditional publishers, which I still love and still we work with them, is that it's been a really slow turnaround to meet a very different world where people are encountering content in different ways. But it's not bad. We can embrace it, and we don't have to throw out everything.

So if there's one defining part of Girl Friday other than we are a culture that puts people above profit. I make books and people. Personally, that's my ethos is my team is a product and I love, and care, and cherish them. And we try to do the same for every single book that we create and care deeply about those. But we can pick and choose and do our very best to change and to, you know, advocate for those writers that are putting their hearts, and souls, and money into these products? Which is fine. It's art and product, and it's beautiful. And there's no shame.

Mary: As one of my amazing team members, Joiya, says, you can love somebody and want them to change. And it's the love that you want them to change with love. It's because you want better for them. I think that there is so much room for growth. So, we're editors, right? Let's use our editorial language and say opportunity for growth.

Leslie: Yes, I love that. It's beautiful.

Mary: In the publishing business model, again, going to the business, but if you think about it, I mean, since the advent of the printing press, publishing has, sort of, been in one lane. We disseminate ideas. We disseminate art. And to your point, if the people who think publishing as a business is odious, that very idea, the idea that their creative output is content now is probably odious in a very similar way.

But I grew up in Silicon Valley. Before I went to work in publishing and it was actually reactionary, I was working in mobile gaming and our company got acquired. For people not watching the video, I mean, it's everything that...it's just revulsion pulled across my features. But the company was acquired and then... This is, kind of, like my publishing origin story. Then the acquiring company killed the game. They were just like, "Okay, thank you. You know, we were actually interested in something over here as part of this acquisition, not you." And something that I'd been working for years to develop, which didn't exist as it turns out, you know, the pixels went away, and the data went away, and the code went away, and it was just dead, like, that day.

And I had this, like, complete knee-jerk reaction. I went to publishing. I dove head first because I wanted to make something lasting and something important and something that could have a beneficial effect and, you know, maybe even a book that I could hold in my hands, which is, you know, usually people... So, now, we hear the Great Exodus. People are leaving publishing to go to tech. Well, I, and my mother is so proud, left tech. I was like, "No, thank you, money."

Leslie: No, I'm going over there. Yes.

Mary: But the business seems very slow in coming around to the idea that we're not only competing with other books, we're competing with binging on Netflix. We're competing with phones. And all we're doing is creating content. And how do we disseminate that content? How do we market it? And publishers are doing less and less of that marketing, expecting writers to do more and more. And so you have to, sort of, be a nimble creature to really find your way. And I actually didn't know about Girl Friday's, sort of, white-label work, collaborative work. I would say, in terms of the clients that come to you, the writers that come to you, how does that process usually work? What are they looking to have done? And where are they on their decision tree that started with, "I want to put a book out there." At what point do they usually find Girl Friday?

Leslie: Well, I think that shifted a little bit in the last few years. I think it used to be that people would come to us, especially we have a very robust...our biggest production program at Girl Friday is for self-published writers. So, independent publishing is the largest division of Girl Friday, and we're super proud of it, and people did amazing work to build up a program that I am so proud of.

And, you know, we put these books out on the table next to any other traditionally published books. They're gorgeous. They're well edited, curated, crafted, marketed. And the fact that we can do that for someone who might have previously been rejected by an agent, I know that you have an agent background, but that would be...you know, they got ready and they're like, "I'm ready to go." And they studied the books, and they crafted their query letter. Nothing happened. And then it was just rejection.

So it used to be, people would say, "Well, I can't have the dream. So, okay, I'm just going to pay for it and do it this bad way." And they would come to us and we would say, "What? Absolutely not." You know, we used to say this isn't your plan B, or it doesn't have to be your plan B. And by saying this, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with people who want and find success publishing traditionally, but that's one path.

And now we're finding many people who are coming to us by choice. We recently had someone who she decided to publish in our hybrid publishing program because of the sales channels opportunities that afforded her. But she was good friends with someone who is a best-selling author. I have his books on my shelf, and she went to him and he was like, "Absolutely not. Don't go to a traditional publisher," and for various reasons, and what he said was, "if you want complete control over your content." And she did. She's a small business owner but doing big things and she works with clients all over the world.

Timeline was of issue and of course the tradeoff is whomever is spending the money, you know, gets to make the decisions. So if that's independent publishing or hybrid publishing, that's either complete control for the author or collaborative control for the author. Traditional publishing, they're giving you an advance. They're paying for your product. And so, you know, it's not in such a hostile way as your example that you gave of buying the product and then shifting it or killing it. But they get to make decisions, and they have lots of experience to make wonderful decisions, but many people don't know your... They're going to choose your title, which is an agonizing process, your cover, your...you know, which totally makes sense. It's their financial risk.

So now it's a choice. We still have some people who come to us and say, "I have an idea," or, "Here's my manuscript." And if we read a manuscript and they say, "I'm ready to publish," and we don't think they are, we will absolutely tell them, "We don't have to edit your book, but we will say, you know, we really think you could help find your audience. If, you know, we still do editorial work, we send clients for book coaching. We have arranged for ghost writing for folks." But usually they have a manuscript in hand and they're ready to embark, having done a lot of research. They're pretty well-informed consumers, which is a really big shift. It's great.

Mary: So when you started in 2006, I am imagining that this was very early days for anybody wanting to publish independently. There was that more prevalent idea of the plan B, right? I'm going to try, get an agent. Oh, no, 99.9% rejection rate. I'm going to divert my manuscript and my project into this potentially less appealing option. There was a stigma, a very real stigma that I think persists to this day a little bit, but I definitely have seen it changing. So what was it like to really start pushing this idea of, "It's a choice. It's not a plan B. This is a perfectly valid avenue," in a time when probably that stigma was pretty baked in?

Leslie: It was slow coming. So, in 2006, you're absolutely right. It was a completely different world. The word on the street then was there were eBooks, and they were going to kill publishing. So that was the big story is the death of books was everywhere. And, yes, self-published books came out of a machine, and they looked terrible. And, you know, the stigma was unbelievable. And so at that time, we were mostly doing proposals. We were doing editorial work for, you know... We didn't engage with many self-publishing clients at that time. And then we had a big crash, a big economic crash, and all of the big houses laid off tons of workers and suddenly it became a little more okay to have your book edited outside, out of house, and so that was the start of the shift. And then Amazon, the growth of Amazon, and then Amazon's own publishing program, that really, sort of, broke things open.

But it's really just in, I would say, the last five years has really been phenomenal in terms of turning that around. But interestingly, I would say that the biggest obstacle is still in people's heads about, "Have I been recognized? Has my work been recognized? Has it been curated? Has someone chosen me...?"

Mary: The validation.

Leslie: The validation factor is still... It's not the readers. The readers don't... They're not coming to it. The readers care about your content in a way that, you know, we look at the imprints on the spine. When I say imprint to most people, they're like, "I have no colophon." What? It's jargon and so it's... Yes, I so much love what you introduced at the beginning, which is this is a business, folks. And if you want to write your story and you don't care if anyone reads, I think that's fantastic, right, for you. If you want someone to read it, of course, it's a product. The second you decided you wanted someone to buy it and read it, you decided it was a product. And it's a fantastic product. Like, how lucky are we that that's the product that we make and sell?

Mary: One of the things that I think has really been a mental shift for a lot of people... And I would say some people aren't there. Some people haven't gotten the memo yet. But definitely to validate your point, within the last five years or so, writers have picked up on this idea that they're not on one path and one track, right? It's not get your agent, get your publisher, and then once a year, until you keel over, that's your, sort of, like issuing one novel a year with the same house, with the same editor. I mean, there's just been so much turbulence with turnover. That editor might be gone. They might, you know, go work elsewhere or leave the industry.

And so this, sort of, pre-planned track, this ladder has, I think, really been thrown on its ear. I mean, if you look, the Brandon Sanderson Kickstarter just closed, I believe, the number one most funded. And I think the number in my head is like $43 million...

Leslie: I think you're right.

Mary: ...to bring his fantasy series out while... So basically start a publishing arm of this company, which already, kind of, like, the groundwork is there. Keep the publishing partnership with traditional houses, that sort of thing where it's like, "Okay, I have this manuscript. Is it a fit for a traditional publisher? Is it a fit for independent publication? Is it a fit for a hybrid publisher? Is it a fit for a small or regional publisher?" Like, every project now, you can have multiple irons in multiple fires and every project now can have its own story rather than just getting on this one train.

I think that shift has really, really happened. And as evidenced by, now, you have other choices to make. You know, are you interested in doing a lot of the marketing yourself? Are you interested in having complete creative control? Are you interested in control of the timeline? Just all of these other considerations that I don't think writers have had in front or even back of mind.

Leslie: No, I agree with you. And I think the best thing that we can do is really help re-craft that in people's minds as opportunity and not... It is overwhelming. I mean, publishing is a really complex business, and I remember starting at Seal Press and Ingrid rattling off all of these acronyms to me. And I was like, "I have no idea what you're saying."

Mary: BISAC codes?

Leslie: BISAC codes, PW. You know, like, it was just the big five. It was, you know, the soon to be big one, you know? And so it is mystifying, and it makes sense that people want help and access to good, unbiased information that, as you say, it's very possible for one writer to produce work that would succeed in different publishing paths with greater success, and that the choice and just looking at the individual goals, what does success mean to you for this series or for this particular book? That that's an opportunity and that it's...

I think people are also taken aback by... There are some shady characters out there and so, you know, those folks have not done hybrid publishing any good. They haven't done self-publishing any good. And some people haven't done the name of traditional publishing any good. And so, you know, I think people...they don't know enough about the industry, so they feel vulnerable and then they're coming into it. They don't want to be taken advantage of.

And I think the more we start talking about all of these channels openly and together and, like, really just, "Here's the checklist with comparisons about what might be the right fit for you or not," instead of, "This is the best option and this is the backup option," I think that it's going to really empower writers, and that's what...empowering the creator I think is really important. I mean, we know what it takes to produce a book that is... It's not the same thing as having an idea, you know? Having an idea is like getting pregnant, and writing the book is like having a baby, and those are two totally separate things.

Mary: I really like this. I may run with this, attributing you of course.

Leslie: Please do. But, you know, it's such hard work and it's really vulnerable. Writers are... It's so frightening for them. I'm a writer. You know, I've felt the same. It's such a scary thing to send your thoughts or your art or, you know, your thought leadership, your mastery out into the world and say...you know, and wait for the online comments to pour in.

Mary: You're always going to get online comments. I have writers asking me, you know, "Like, how do I avoid blowback on Twitter?" and I'm like, "Just cease existing because it's going to find you. There's going to be at least that one person, the keyboard warrior." But that is, I think to your point about bad actors, the vulnerability that is inherent in the publishing process, and the writing process, the creative process is what makes writers pretty good targets for some of this not so scrupulous behavior, which is part of the, sort of, bad PR that "independent publishing, hybrid publishing packaging" has experienced. And I just want to send up a flag right now to anybody listening. If you type publisher into Google... And why not? You're looking for a publisher, right? All of those people, most of them, I will say are probably going to be people who make money from offering you a good proposal and maybe then not following through.

And I did want to talk about what that follow through means, because I think, for people who were early in the self-publishing or the hybrid publishing process, actually, can you define how those two are like or different just so we're all kind of on the same page?

Leslie: Yes, nice, nice. So self-publishing, independent publishing, think of it as fee for service. We often liken it to hiring a contractor to come in and redo your kitchen. And so it could be anything from help with ideation, but it should involve all of the same components that a traditional or a hybrid publisher. It will involve marketing consulting. It will involve editorial. Probably more editorial than you expect. If it's good, there should be a lot of it. There should be developmental. There should be copy edit. There should be proofread. If you come to us and say, "No, I'm proofread-ready," I guarantee you we're going to fight you because you're not. You're not, but you know what? I wrote something last night. It was not proofread ready. I sent it to someone to edit. That's what writers do.

Mary: Thank you for the job security by the way.

Leslie: Well, yes, if anything, I want editors to have job security forever, because it makes you look good. It makes writers look good.

Mary: You need another set of eyes.

Leslie: Oh, my gosh.

Mary: Another brain.

Leslie: You do.

Mary: That collaborative piece.

Leslie: I mean, and it should be wonderful. People often, I think, think they're going to be scolded or the red pen.

Mary: Well, I think you saying, "We're going to fight you..."

Leslie: [crosstalk 00:26:59] fight you on the idea that it does not need it, not in the actual process. And we wouldn't ever fight. See, now, I'm going to say that and then all of the beautiful people who intake at Girl Friday, they're not combative at all. And so I am not doing that at all. And then there's cover design. There's interior design. You have printing decisions to make. You can be print on demand. So, all of those components should be a part. And of course, some people are more expert than others, or they might select outside a team. Not everyone needs a full-service firm like we are. We provide all of those things and build a team for you to really mimic the production part of a traditional house as much as possible.

Now for that, you pay for all of those services, and it's not a small amount of money. It takes six to nine months because it takes a long time to make a book. We can rush them. You know, you can have a book in three months. It's really difficult, and it's going to be a press. But in exchange, you have full copyright ownership. You get 100% of all royalties. Once you have paid us for helping you to produce it, you go into the world, you start doing your fabulous marketing, and that's it. You have full control over your title, your cover. We're going to consult with you, but if you say, "Absolutely not, I want this painting my friend did. I'm set on it," it's your book.

And so it's the best option for people really who are going to sell mostly their books online, which most books are sold online, but those are the channels that are available to you. Can you go and, you know, expand distribution? And can you go get it into a bookstore? You can. It's hard. There isn't a rep taking your book around. And so your sales aren't going to happen there. You can do foreign right sales or subright sales on your own. You know, the movie deal, but obviously very difficult.

Hybrid publishing, the main difference is that it gives you access to different sales channels. So traditional bookstore distribution, Target, Costco. As part of our hybrid program, we also do subsidiary rights, so we do rep your book out and you might sell Polish rights or you might get, you know, a movie deal. And what that means is then we take it to the sales reps at Ingram, and we sell it, and then they get excited about your book, and then they go out to all of their accounts, and they're really trying to sell your book into sales channels, which, for independent publishing, you're doing that on your own of course. Then you split royalties. You don't own the copyright because it's a hybrid publisher.

So we are a publisher, and we own that work. The splits are much different, much higher of course than they are for traditional publishing. But you are also still investing capital. So, you have collaboration and so you get many more royalties than you would over here, but you're also still paying money. So for people who don't have capital to invest, those two are not good options unless you can raise that capital or do a kick-starter for $43 million, then you'd have plenty. You'd have just plenty with still to spare.

Mary: I would love to do a kick-starter and just not provide deliverables just so I can have a fabulous life. That's the kick-starter that I'm [inaudible 00:30:58].

Leslie: I would contribute, Mary.

Mary: It goes into the negative. I have to pay people to take it down. Okay, so you have touched upon two things that I really hope we can dig into, which are marketing and distribution.

Leslie: Yes.

Mary: Those are, sort of, two ways in which I think people have historically seen indie and hybrid efforts fall flat, especially for fiction. But in that vein, what is your client mix? Do you see more nonfiction? Like, kind of thought leadership, business books, that sort of thing. Do you see a fair amount of fiction? What's your mix just experientially?

Leslie: We actually do have a full mix. We do children's books. We have literary fiction. We have genre fiction, memoir, definitely nonfiction thought leadership books, a lot of business consulting books. I mean, a book is a fantastic marketing tool for entrepreneurs, and so we have lots of those folks come in. I'm going to agree with you that, if someone comes in, they have no platform, which by means they don't engage with a wider audience, and they say, "I have this piece of literary fiction. No one has ever heard of me, and I want to sell a billion copies." That's a tough road. And you know what? It's going to be a tough road, whether a random house publishes it, whether Girl Friday Books publishes it, or whether definitely if you publish it on your own. It's tough. I mean, I think everyone... Well, I don't know. I would say that's certainly one of the most difficult genres to market. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. I love literary fiction.

Genre fiction is a fantastic fit for independent publishing because that's where most of those books are sold. I mean, we have a client who has written award-winning, self-published World War II fiction. It's flying off the virtual shelves, which is amazing for him, you know? Romance, obviously. Like, there are lots of thrillers. Amazon is the go-to place to buy those books.

Mary: And there are whole... And this, I would say, is true about the last five to seven years. There are whole strategies that you can deploy. Amazon does ads that are very robust for certain types of books. Like, K-lytics analyzes the categories and keywords that you can use. Kindle Kindlepreneur. I mean the whole Mark Dawson's Self Publishing School. There are, sort of, like, a wholesale checklist of marketing strategies that you can get into that do take, yes, more capital dedication. You got to learn some new skills. You got to get real comfortable with publishing and, like, marketing and talking about it as if it was a product.

But I think where a lot of people have gotten burned by self-publishing or heard stories of people who've gotten burned is in this, like, general fiction, trade fiction, literary fiction, especially if you don't already have a platform, you're not a Kardashian, you know?

Leslie: I like the idea of the Kardashian writing literary fiction. I'm not saying they can't.

Mary: Well, I'm not saying they're ghost writer. You know, let's be real.

Mary: Yeah, that's true. It's true, it's true.

Mary: But you had an idea, and you wrote a story, and now you want the world to hear it and buy it. I think that's where a lot of that disappointment and, kind of, the negative outcome of self-publishing can happen because Amazon, for example, makes it very easy to press publish, but you're one of X number of people who are clicking publish on your fiction the same day.

Leslie: Forty-five hundred books a day.

Mary: Forty-five hundred?

Leslie: Books a day. So then I don't know what percentage of those are fiction, but, yeah, I mean, those odds aren't good.

Mary: Is that indie or the whole enchilada?

Leslie: I think that's the whole enchilada.

Mary: See, I was going to just say 10,000 just to be, like, incredibly hyperbolic. I am shocked. You would of course have the numbers. So, yeah, you and your 4,500 closest friends are clicking publish today, your launch day, 10 years in the making, and then it is no longer true by any stretch that if you build it, they will come. Even though the tools exist, but now you're a marketer. Full stop. Once it's out, once all the production has happened, once the writing and editing, and all the dreaming, and all of that has happened, it's marketing really where people tend to flame out, especially in fiction, especially in general fiction, because what can you really say? I mean, unless it's set really deeply in, like, a World War II niche, or the story has a character that plays softball and you have access to the, like, American softball league.

Leslie: Exactly.

Mary: I'm just making up names of things.

Leslie: No, I absolutely take your point. I mean, if we think about just how we use Amazon, or a bookstore, or a different... I don't discover fiction on Amazon. I love literary fiction. I look for it in a bookstore, and the cover may be of interest or maybe I heard about it, right, through some, sort of, marketing. I heard about it on a podcast. I saw someone on... And that's where we get back to this tastemaker, because that's why people... Even through hybrid publishing, you can get the book into bookstores. I don't think, for general, if you don't have a platform and you're writing general fiction, I think it's going to be very difficult for you to find success on Amazon. And anyone who came to us, that's exactly what we would tell them, and it doesn't mean, "Don't follow through," but I think that...I guarantee you you're not going to sell a single book if you want to put it out there and wait. And I don't care who's publishing your book. All of us have to be marketers. If you're a writer...

Mary: Your mom might buy it.

Leslie: I mean, hopefully, but right. But what they want is like they don't buy it. They want free... You know, you have a stack, and then you give a free copy.

Mary: That is actually very true.

Leslie: She's not buying your book.

Mary: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's very true. Let me ask you. Okay, so let's just say, kind of... I guess you can't be category or audience agnostic with this question. I was going to say like, "Let's lump it all together." What I really want to know is... So that distribution piece, bookstores, to your point about discoverability, libraries, schools, airports, Target, Costco, I mean, once you get Costco, you're doing really well. But how much does that...? Because a lot of people have this belief that distribution is how you make it, right? They have maybe internalized, "Okay, so clicking publish on Amazon isn't going to get me where I want to go, but distribution will." Can you debunk that idea or bunk it? I mean, I'm really curious what you see the pros and cons of distribution being. Is it the silver bullet?

Leslie: No. And in fact, when you say, can you be agnostic on it, when people come to us and they're undecided, what we go... places not just online, which doesn't mean that it doesn't sell lots of copies online, but there are lots of points of discovery for that book. If you wrote a standard thriller, you might sell books in the bookstore and maybe you're, you know, probably not unless your last name is Patterson. Maybe you're in an airport bookstore. But the chances are really your sales are going to be on Amazon. So is it necessary? I'm not going to say it's going to hurt you. It's going to hurt you financially in that someone's going to take a cut, you know? And so for some people, it makes more financial sense to keep all of their royalties. If all you're selling is on Amazon, you're going to make less on those Amazon sales, but it does provide opportunity. So for some books, that opportunity makes a lot more sense than for others. So does it hurt? No, I don't think distribution ever hurts. Is it going to make it or break it for you? Absolutely not. And that's really genre-dependent.

Mary: Yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. So, other routes to discoverability. I mean, everyone's like, "Should I get a TikTok, you know?" I once had one client, so adorable, was like, "Should I get on Tic Tac?" She was like...

Leslie: Tic Tac, aw. It's like the Twitter.

Mary: Bookstagram. The tweets. Should I tweet? But, I mean, we hear these things like the BookTok movement is just pushing discoverability through the roof, through the roof. In your experience, let's just say I don't have a email newsletter list of 15,000 names, you know? Let's say I've written some beautiful fiction like my very good friend who is actually a Girl Friday alumn, but M. Day Hampton wrote Behind Picketwire, a beautiful literary novel. Okay, well, let's say what is the route then to maybe not having that big kind of reach, not having that newsletter. How do we start with discoverability?

Leslie: Discoverability. No, it's a really good question. And it's sort of...it's the question. So, where we start is you will like this as a Silicon Valley alumn. We start with data. So we start by the person that... You know, my editorial advice is always I want you to be thinking of your ideal reader while you're writing, because when I'm editing, that's who I'm editing for. I'm not editing for the writer, I'm editing for that person that they're trying to reach. And so if you already have that person in mind and it's not everyone, right? It's not everyone. It's not...

Mary: I think Coca-Cola is the only company...

Leslie: [crosstalk 00:42:20].

Mary: ...that has figured out, I'm so sorry, to sell something to everybody on the planet. Coca-Cola is it. But the people that come and say like, "Oh, everyone would love this." I'm like, "You are going to have such a rude awakening in the marketing side of things."

Leslie: Absolutely. No, I mean, I think you're right. Coca-Cola's over here and then the rest of us mere mortals live over here where the fact is... And I think that this is... You know, digital marketers have been over the, like, follower count for 10 years. And now publishers got on the bandwagon and were like, "We're only signing people who had this many followers," and they're like, "Oh, wait a minute. That didn't translate directly into sales," because it's about engagement. So if you can fully engage this ideal reader, that's where you're going to sell books and so we start with research and we say, "This is your ideal reader. Here are the personas. This is where they're hanging out. Don't spend any time on Twitter. That's not where your readers are. Your readers are over here or they're over there." And so that's where we start deciding, do you start collecting emails and build an email list? Should you go on a podcast tour? Do you already engage with a blog? And so there isn't one way to do it. There are lots of different tactics, but I think the place you start is really know who you're trying to get, and there is one person who's going to be more interested in your book than most other people like one type of person.

And so just try to engage with them first. Like, that's what builds this relationship. That's what makes me want to press buy, not, you know... There's a lot of crazy things on TikTok, and maybe that's one point, but you know, I mean, what do they say? We need to run into this product seven times before we're like, "Oh, yeah," you know? And certainly I know that that's true for myself. So it's probably not one avenue, but you are going to have to market it but just really start narrow, I would say. Go after this one group and really enjoy engaging with them however that is. I mean, I think that's the best starting point for you to be happy and keep up with it also because no one likes just... It takes tons of time.

Mary: Tweeting into the void, you know, and not seeing that engagement. I think that's starting place of that ideal...they call it a customer avatar in marketing circles. That is really actionable, I think, for a lot of people, because a lot of us write what we know, so there's a pretty good chance that you know your audience, you know who is going to resonate with your character, you read cozy mysteries, so you wrote a cozy mystery and you're kind of the demographic. That's a wonderful, I think very digestible starting point because my primary complaint that I hear from writers is once they're kind of on the market, like over the hill and kind of on the marketing side of things is I don't even know where to start. I don't know how to manage my time. It's also overwhelming. And you have everybody in your ears saying, "You need a TikTok." And you just don't even know how to separate the signal from the noise.

So I think that's actually a really beautiful and elegant entry point that I think a lot of people should listen to and will appreciate. And I think your data approach is I don't want to poop on traditional publishing. That being said, I think that they take sort of a...they're getting better, but they've historically taken a bit of a data agnostic approach or not really knowing how to parse the data as more and more data became available. And this is where we really split, you know, Mary's road from, you know, the tech into the book world.

So Callisto Media, their, sort of, approach is they figure out what kind of longtail keywords. And I'm not sure if they've...but the last time I checked in with them, instead of trying to smash it out of the park with a best seller, they're like, "Oh, a lot of parents are..." You know, to your point about grief and anxiety books, a lot of parents are looking for a very specific book in this area. Well, we have the data. Let's make the book.

Leslie: Let's make the book.

Mary: And the data tells us that there's an audience for it and will be the number one selling book in this very specific, kind of, longtail niche category, and their whole approach is data-driven. And meanwhile, traditional publishing over here is like, "Well, we can't tell you how many books you've sold except for twice a year, but we can't buy your next book because we don't know how well your first book sold. And we could but we have to wait until September." It's almost maddening because it's like, well, the data is available. The computing power is available to, like, put all this stuff together, but it's an experience of being left almost in the dark on your own product. And I think I'm talking myself into indie publishing and hybrid publishing here because I'm like, "You know, you actually need a little bit more visibility on your life's work." Call me crazy.

Leslie: No. And I think that amount of control and then the ability to be nimble and to see where you're selling books and react there and to control that, because the big publishers are going to ask you to do that sort of reader marketing anyway. They're not going to do reader marketing. They're marketing to the trade. And we all know that setting up book events feels lovely and doesn't sell any books except for maybe that's where your mother actually does buy one and, you know, the handful of other people. But I don't think it was helped by the Amazon traditional publisher fight, because then I also think... I mean, to your point about Callisto being at one end, I also think that Amazon came to represent algorithms and algorithmic publishing. And so it almost became... I don't know if this is true, but it almost seemed like it became a point of pride. We will stay as far away from data. You know, we are guarding this art. We curate fine literature which...

Mary: Thought leaders.

Leslie: Why can't you... Yeah, I mean, why...

Mary: That's the thing.

Leslie: I thought you want both of those things.

Mary: The data is available, and I think to your very good point, you want to be nimble and make decisions informed by data for your marketing, could only make it better rather than, like, screaming into the void and hoping somebody gets your message. Publishers, I'm sure on their sales channel, know exactly which channels are working. But on your royalty statement, you see copies sold. You see returns, boohoo, you know? I get personally offended on my statements. I'm like, "What?"

Leslie: I do too.

Mary: But you don't actually see what's moving the needle. It's very sort of hard. And that's, I think, why a lot of people are just naturally suspicious of marketing because it does seem like your efforts go into a black box and it's very, sort of, difficult to parse what actually moves the needle. And not just moves the needle because you can send a hundred people to your Amazon product page and two will convert. And you don't know why, and you don't know who they are. So, I mean, it's not perfect even when you do have some of the data that we can get from our Twitter feed, and we can see who clicks a link in an email and any kind of... Then we lose the thread a little bit in terms of what the final purchasing decision actually looked like.

Leslie: No, I agree. I mean, it's been interesting coming back into the publishing world, the distributed publishing world through Girl Friday Books. Being on the publisher side of that, I mean, it's time consuming and really difficult to keep up with. We do have real-time information and suggestions and shifts and doing that for all authors all of the time. That's more than a full-time job. And so, yeah, I think there is a balance. So I feel for them on that side, but I also don't... There's also just not looking. There's looking and only being able to act on part of it and not looking at all or empowering anyone to act on it. So I agree with you. I think writers are becoming better consumers and they're sort of demanding. Why not? Why can't I have this, and that, and that? And the answer, "Well, that's just not how it's been done." I don't think that's flying anymore and, you know, good for them. Good for us for saying...

Mary: [inaudible 00:51:59] satisfying.

Leslie: Why not? Why not?

Mary: Yeah, completely. Look, I made my bones. As a literary agent in the trad world have a lot of respect for people who go that path. But coming from, you know, here in California tech world, I have long held a lot of questions and a lot of curiosities about why there isn't more of a meeting of the minds there. And I think his name is Jeff Bezos. I mean, I think to your point, there's this reactionary tendency to be like, "Ugh, this reeks of tech," and we're over here, you know, patrons of the arts.

And I do think that that is detrimental in certain ways for the writer. And you're right. They do have different options. And Girl Friday is certainly a wonderful one. I was telling you before we got rolling, I actually, so full disclosure, have referred some writing clients, editorial clients to Girl Friday, but that's because I don't spray my referrals everywhere. I have, like, one or two companies that I have really been impressed with the work.

And so it was just such a joy for me to get the chance to talk to you, because I think that you really are at the forefront of a really, really solid choice that people can make. Yes, it does take capital. Yes, it does take a strong project. Yes, it does take the kind of project that would do well with, sort of, direct to audience marketing in a lot of cases.

But, yeah, I love that you got an English degree and then got a business degree not just for your leadership of your company but because I do think more and more as more tools become available to us, as more outlets to publish to get our work into the world become available to us, everybody should kind of think like a business person a little. I'm sorry.

Leslie: No, and it's so good. And number one, first, thank you so much because, as I told you, we also, on the other side, only work with people we deeply trust. We would never refer someone out to just anyone. And so vice versa right back at you.

But I love the opportunity for... Maybe this can be the starting point for authors to...if every writer or every published author is an entrepreneur, then maybe that can be the starting point of this false dichotomy between business and art or business and parenthood, another type of creation, or business, and doing good in the world. It's time to break that stuff down and maybe this can help us, you know, by chipping away at that side because our business model in general in America I think is broken in that way. And so maybe just, in this one way, we're helping to change that narrative, which I would enjoy.

Mary: I love it. Thank you so much, Leslie "LAM."

Leslie: Thank you.

Mary: It has been a true pleasure. Everybody check out Girl Friday. And, yeah, this has been one of my absolute favorite conversations just because it's something... The business model of traditional versus indie versus hybrid publishing has just been so top of mind for me as I see different people making different choices for their careers, for individual projects. It's just so wonderful to know your options and to really get a peek at the ideology of a person who makes it all happen. So, this has been my absolute pleasure.

Leslie: Well, I loved it. Thank you so much.

Mary: Thank you. This has been Mary Kole with "The Good Story Podcast." Here's to a good story.

Thank you so much for tuning into "The Good Story Podcast." My name is Mary Kole, and I want to extend my deepest gratitude to the Good Story Company team: Kristen Overman, Amy Wilson, Rhiannon Richardson, Joiya Morrison-Efemini, Kate London, Michal Leah, Jenna Van Roy, Kathy Martinolich, Len Cattan-Prugl, Rebecca Landesman, Steve Reiss, and Gigi Collins. Please check us out at goodstorycompany.com, and I would love it if you joined Good Story Learning, a monthly membership with new content added where you can learn everything you ever wanted to know and more about writing and publishing for writers of all categories and ability levels. Thanks again for listening. And here's to a good story.