An enlightening discussion about creativity, picture book writing, illustration, inspiration, and making mistakes ... in a good way!

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Transcript of Podcast episoDe 3: Interview with Peter H. Reynolds, Picture Book Author and Illustrator

Mary: Hello. Hello. This is Mary Kole with Good Story Podcast. For this very special third episode, I would love to welcome Peter H. Reynolds, author, illustrator, and dot connector extraordinaire. Peter, it's so wonderful to have you on. Could you please introduce yourself for the audience?

Peter: Sure. Well, an absolute honor to be with you. I am Peter Reynolds. Although when I go to schools, kids always call me Peter H. Reynolds, and that is Peter Hamilton Reynolds. Yeah. I was born in Canada with my twin brother, Paul, and we came to the United States when we were three. And I always say that we have a journey family because my father was born in Argentina. Mum was born in London. One of my grandparents was born in New Zealand, another in Scotland. So we've been through a lot. And so, we are a journey family, and I know a lot of people out there can relate to that.

And I think that's probably one of the things that helped me become a storyteller because our family is full of stories. And I have been sharing those stories through my books like The Dot and The North Star and collaborations with Megan McDonald. I illustrate the Judy Moody series, and I also illustrate the I AM series by the lovely human being, Susan Verde, I Am Human, I Am Yoga, I Am Peace, I Am Love, and we're just wrapping up by our next one called I Am One, and that'll be out next year. And I also am collaborating with my twin brother, Paul. We've done four books together, the Sydney & Simon series, and a book called Going Places. And then, of course, I collaborate with myself. So, I get to illustrate my own stories, and I've done a bunch recently for Scholastic, Happy Dreamer, The Word Collector, Say Something, and there's a new one that's coming out called Be You, a handbook for amazing human beings. And I also have an animation company called FableVision in Boston. It's 35 full-time artists, writers, programmers, animators, creating really cool, meaningful media that we hope will change the world. And to top it off, I also have my very own bookstore called the Blue Bunny in my hometown. There's more but—

Mary: I was gonna say, do you fit eating and sleeping into the schedule at all?

Peter: I'm going to investigate those concepts.

Mary: That work-life balance thing, right? The mythical idea that I think, some of us, we put a little pin in it to investigate later. Just not now because we're too busy.

Peter: Well, being born a twin, you know, I think that might have something to do with it, you know, that ... you know, if you have a lot to do, be born a twin because you can get twice as much stuff done.

Mary: Oh, my gosh. I will put that on my to-do list.

Peter: Yes, Paul and I always say, "If you don't have a twin, find a twin." He is an amazing human being who has been my cheerleader on the journey. And I finally...I told him, I'm like, "Paul, I appreciate all of your cheerleading but, you know, you're an amazing writer, thinker, teacher, and father. You have a lot of wisdom to share with the world. You should really start doing your books." So, fortunately, he started, and he's now on a roll, and I've been able to collaborate with him on his books, and he's got lots more to come.

Mary: That is wonderful. So, one of my questions was going to be, you know, you are a writer, you are an illustrator. You write yourself your own projects, as you said, but you also illustrate. So, why don't we just dive in? That was gonna be my first question anyway. How is the process different, and how do you approach projects when they're sort of your own? You've come up with the idea, the whole concept, I would imagine, and you're gonna be the one taking words and images across the finish line. And how does that differ from when you're coming into somebody else's idea and words and you're acting as a collaborator?

Peter: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think in both cases, you know, if I'm writing my own story, I make a movie in my head. That's kind of how I start. I come up with the idea and then suddenly I just imagine that idea, you know, cast with characters and settings, and it becomes a little movie in my head. And I write it down, and I jot down the images that I have in my head, but I think the same thing happens... You know, when I read somebody else's work, I immediately turn it into a movie, and I could see it in my head as I'm reading. I'm turning your words into characters. And it's an equally fun process for me. In some ways, maybe it's easier to illustrate other people's stories because, you know, that's the way Megan McDonald wanted. She described the scene that way, and we're gonna stick with it. Whereas if I'm writing and illustrating, I could always change my mind as the writer, and you can drive yourself a bit crazy with all the possibilities. So, yeah, eventually, you have to just say, "Okay. All right. Let's settle down and choose. If we're gonna choose a character, we're gonna choose the story."

But I love both. I really do. I love collaborating. In fact, probably it's... You know, I have less of my books out there than I would like, because I actually have a journal called "Books Not Yet in Print" and it's my imaginary catalog with all of my future book ideas. And I draw the covers to the book, so it looks like a little Scholastic catalog. And the books don't exist. Well, some of them do now because, as I thumb through, I see the ones that I've done, but I have about 400 book covers that I have drawn, and I know each one of them. I know the story inside each one of them. So, I've done the math, and I'm not quite sure I can...I don't think I can get them all done. So, that's why...you know. Well, I love making lovely stories and bringing good stories to the world. So, if I can help a friend...and, you know, my collaborators are my friends. I only work with people I like and whose hearts and minds are in sync with mine.

I had the honor to work with Amy Krouse Rosenthal, who is truly one of the most extraordinary people on the planet and, you know, it was such a joy working with her. It actually felt very twin-ish. And I also described Susan Verde as my cosmic twin sister because we're so, so much alike. When I read her words, I think I'm like, "Well, this sounds like a book that I would have written." And it feels very natural. So, illustrating her stuff is very easy for me because it sounds... Yeah, it's vocabulary that's really familiar to me.

Mary: I think that is a very wonderful point. And we'll come back to sort of the heart of what you do, at the heart of what you do, so to speak, with some of your charitable work, TLC. We will get to that. But I think it's very interesting that you talk about this concept of twins and collaborations and sort of being likeminded, like-spirited with the people that you work with. I mean, at your sort of level in your career, you can probably have your pick of anybody. Are you looking for new collaborators? Is there room to add to the twinship at this point, or do you have sort of...? Do you have your base team of people that you will want to be working with?

Peter: I'm open to all possibilities. I get excited about the whole concept of duets, and, you know, being surprised by combining people that maybe wouldn't have expected to work with. You know, it's like there's that great holiday song video, singing the "Little Drummer Boy," which is...it's so lovely to see those two. They were so different, and yet they made something really beautiful together. So, you know, I welcome being surprised, you know, working with, well, anybody that's got a story that is going to help heal the world, make it a better place, get people to be more thoughtful. So, yeah. So, I'm definitely open to collaborating.

Mary: Let's talk a little bit about the illustration craft as you approach it. You have, in your case, these 400 books and your journal, and sort of you have the ideas. Maybe there are changes to the ideas that you can make as you work, and then you have, you know, somebody else's manuscript that you come to. In these movies that appear in your head, what do you usually see first? Is it sort of all over the place, or is your entry point into a story, the character, a certain look, or movement of the character, is it the world of the story, for example, some detail of the world that draws you in? How does the movie usually open when you sit down with a new project?

Peter: Well, it depends if somebody is sharing the idea or if I'm reading a manuscript. If I read the manuscript, I literally take each word, and I turn it into an image, and I kind of let that person be the director of my film. But often if someone is describing an idea to me, it's the character that pops out and I kind of sketch it in my head, and I see my little character, you know, hauling the gigantic log down the road, and that becomes the touchstone image for me, and then I'll start sketching what I'm seeing, and then that helps me get to know the character, and then the world kind of unfolds from there.

Mary: And what about your use of color? One of the books that we read in my house a lot...I have a three-and-a-half-year-old son and, you know, a 10-month-old son, but the three-and-a-half-year-old is really into Guyku which is a project I love. And there, your use of color is very judicious to reflect each season. How do you interact with color? How do you create some of these other kind of elements of the world, not just the line work?

Peter: Yeah. Well, "less is more" is my guide. I think that our imaginations are pretty amazing and that you don't need to deliver every bit of information, you know, "Oh, his pants are red and, you know, his shoes green." In some ways, it's almost a distraction unless the story was about the green shoes, you know, if it's a big deal that it's the green shoes and he's the only kid in class with green shoes. Then, in fact, I would even reduce the color like in Guyku, which is a lovely collection of poems for guys, although girls can read them too by Bob Raczka. I used a single palette for each season, so I had browns, and yellows, and blues, and greens, I think. But, you know, in The Dot, for instance, I use a sepia tone for pretty much everything except for when she's creating her dots or if her emotion comes out as a dot. So when she first jabs the paper, she gave the paper a good strong jab there, there's this big red dot behind her. So, I tend to use color just, yeah, very judiciously when it seems that it's going to help.

In fact, I'd love to do a book without any color, just line because my sketchbooks, which I have hundreds of, are filled with line drawings with my little trusty sharpie, my very simple, black extra-fine sharpie, and I just put pen to paper and images flow out. And I have probably thousands of these little drawings, and I don't think they need color. So, I mean, Shel Silverstein is famous for that, right? Just line on paper. No color whatsoever. But, of course, in the kid lit world as we know, you know, there are publishers and publishers wants to sell books, and there's kind of a safe lane in children's books. That's why a lot of books, you know, they tend to look a lot like each other because they know the formula that works. Nice, bright, splashy colors, fill the page just to...so, they tend to blend one into another. That's why it's exciting when you see a book that's, you know, so different and you're like, "Wow, somebody was brave." And then I like to look at, like, "Who was the publisher that was brave enough to publish that book?"

Mary: I mean, this is an oldie, but The Arrival, Shaun Tan comes to mind immediately. It was wordless. It had a very specific palette. You know, it's basically a graphic novel that was published in picture book format, and that was such a treat to see it in this market.

Peter: Having a bookshop, you know, it's fun to have all those books at my fingertips. And one that stands out to me is The Gold Leaf. Do you know The Gold Leaf?

Mary: Yeah.

Peter: Kirsten Hall. And Matthew Forsythe is the illustrator. It's such a gorgeous book, and it does not look like a...well, to me, it looks like a fabulous picture book, but on first glance, it's a very somber cover. It's a very dark sepia background, and I just know a traditional publisher probably would have said, "I love it, but could we make it a little more cheery?"

Mary: So, this is a U-turn or a left turn rather, but as a former literary agent, I was very much part of the traditional publishing industry and, there, you're right. Risks are sort of not encouraged because agents want to represent what they know will sell. Publishers want to publish what they know will sell. And so, writers who do have sort of an out-there idea or maybe something risky, maybe something new, especially in a market, you're right, as segmented and, you know, in some cases familiar and maybe even a little cookie-cutter as children's books. What advice would you give to a writer who maybe has such an out-there project and kind of getting those champions seems like an insurmountable thing?

Peter: Well, if you've got an out-there idea or if you're the only person that seems to believe in the idea or get the idea, self-publish, you know. It's come a long way in 30 years. Back in the day, you know, they would call it vanity press. And it was also very, very expensive to self-publish. And today, I mean, if you set your mind to it and start right now, you know, this time tomorrow, you could upload your files, and press go, and get a copy delivered to you probably the next day. So, it's kind of extraordinary the tools that we have access to right now. And, you know, if you do have a cool idea and you want to share it with the world and that world might be you, maybe your mother, I would say print three copies. One for yourself, one for your mother or someone who loves you and will say nice things and encourage you, and then one for a complete stranger, and then you're published.

And then I encourage people to widen that circle and get a couple of copies and give them to teachers. You will learn so, so much from handing it to a teacher because, if it works, you'll hear about it. If it doesn't work, eventually, maybe five weeks later, they'll say, "Oh, thank you for dropping that book off." If it works, they're going to send you an email and say, "Oh, my gosh. What an amazing conversation. My kids, you know, they all started making crowns, and our classroom became a kingdom, and they've named it," and you'll be surprised to see, you know, like, when it works, it really works. And Paul and I often like to say that the teachers know how to activate a book. A kid could read a book, but a teacher really knows how to activate it. And when you activate a book, you do that deep dive into it and you not just read it. You reread it. You start to figure out the meaning. You start having conversations, and then you explore the ideas in physical ways by making things, by making songs, by creating costumes. And that one, you know, five-minute story experience can actually turn into a week-long, a month-long, a year-long experience and will be transformational for the kids that experience it.

Mary: So, I'm really going to put the screws to you here and ask the question that I think is on every writer's mind, whether they're writing a picture book, illustrating a picture book, writing something for non-children's readers even because I think that this nugget of an idea is relevant everywhere. But how do you achieve that kind of traction with a book? What does a book need to have to take it from a, "Thank you for dropping this off," sort of polite reaction to the kind of reaction that runs for not just a year but years? Because I think a lot of the books that you work on have this quality, this X factor. And I'm really curious to hear if you have an answer for this question because a lot of writers are wondering this exact thing.

Peter: I think choosing a universal theme that defies an age group. You know, if it's loneliness, right? You could be a lonely first grader. You could be a lonely 90-year-old. Those are things that all of us can understand. You know, struggling with first day of school, there's really only a very limited audience for that and it might serve those kids really, really well. But if you're 25 years old, you're probably not going to be able to discern the metaphor for, you know, life from reading a story about a kid struggling with the first day of kindergarten. And I think, also, when we're writing stories that, if you imagine yourself with the circle of, let's say, kindergarten or first-graders, and you're telling a story for them, it will be very, very different than if you were sitting at a table, you know, during the holidays and you've got the kindergarten kid at the table and you also have grandma and you've got your, you know, 60-year-old uncle. If you've got everybody around you and you're telling a story for everybody, it's going to sound a lot different than if you just have that circle of kids.

So, I try to encourage people to write stories for everybody or whatever age they are that they should be able to find the story interesting and that they're going to learn something from it and be inspired by your story, by your wisdom. And that's another thing I tell people. If you're looking for a story idea, look for the wisdom that you've collected along the way.

The good news is that get a whole year's worth of wisdom. When we turn one year older, sometimes we panic. I mean, you're older, I remind people. Yeah, but you got a year's worth of wisdom, and probably a lot of that wisdom was probably hard-fought for. You know, the journey is tough, and we make our mistakes, and hopefully, we learn from them. If you have learned from them, you know, that becomes the basis of some really good storytelling because every good story actually has a problem. It's got a challenge. And if you haven't lived a big life, if you haven't made your mistakes, your stories aren't going to be that relatable because, you know, all of us, no matter what age, if you're that first grader or you're just retired, we all need help. And if you've learned something you can share with somebody else, you know, at least they could see it from your perspective, and they may say, "Wow, you know, that's a really good way to look at it."

And I know with my twin brother...we're identical twins, but we look at the world differently, and Paul definitely teaches me. I remember we were in the car together. We were driving to Boston and it was raining. When we get onto the highway and we see all the red lights, and I sort of groaned, and I said, "Oh, my God. This is going to take forever to get to Boston." And Paul just very quietly looked at me with a smile, and he said, "More time to spend together." And I thought, "Wow," you know? I was looking at this thing as were stuck in traffic, but he looked at that, "Wow, we get to spend more time together." And so, it was his perspective of the same situation, and that stuck with me too, and that's why, you know, stories are awesome because they're really sticky. You know, the good ones are really sticky, and the idea, the enlightenment in that story can stay with you for your whole life.

Mary: So, I'm hearing a bunch of things that I love here. I think the takeaway though is Peter H. Reynolds advises you to go out and make mistakes. Am I right?

Peter: Do you know what? That's absolutely right. We're all panicked to get it right, and, you know, life is messy. Creativity is messy. And you can't stress yourself out to try to get it right, including living your life, right? Because, you know, we have to be brave. You have to be fearless. You have to sometimes dive into the deep end of the pool. And then when you're actually creating stuff, creating your stories, and your artwork, some of us are really...you know, we're perfectionist because, you know, that's at least the paradigm in public education in the United States is that there's really only one choice, right? It's straight As. You got six courses. The goal is you got to be an expert in everything, and you memorize stuff, and you spit it back. And it's a unfortunate paradigm because, you know, we're not great at everything and thank goodness we're not. And in fact, I think it's divine plan that you know something. I know something different. You know, my neighbor is better at engineering. The woman across the street is great at math. We all need each other, and if we were great at everything, I think the planet will fall apart. So, I think we need to embrace our mistakes. Be more fearless and then also, you know, hone in on what it is that you're really, really, really good at, and, you know, keep playing. Keep experimenting even the stuff that you're really, really good at. We all need to be challenged to maybe be even more uncareful in a more fearless, more playful, and keep learning. We know that the learning process never stops. I'm still learning. I keep thinking like, "Okay. I'm almost there," you know. I'll actually be starting my seventh decade on the planet in about 400 days, which kind of mind-blowing to me, and I still feel like I'm just getting started.

Mary: Wow. So, I'm going to pivot to something else that you said because there's been so much, I think, good perspective. And now, Paul, move aside, you're the one giving some really good perspective here. So, one of the things that I think is key to making a book sticky, like you said, is this universal theme, universal experience on the page. It can come from multiple characters in a picture book, which is why I think getting some of that intergenerational sort of family story on the page is really effective, and that's why so many adult novels, pardon me, literary fiction projects, the intergenerational story is just so sticky to readers because it does open up doors for multiple layers of experience, different perspectives, as you said, but one of the traps a lot of writers fall into in the picture book space is having grandma come in with her depth of experience and say, "Well, see Johnny? That's why we share, and sharing is great." And a lot of books sort of almost disenfranchise the kid audience by putting the answer right there on the page.

So, if a writer is really struggling, they have a universal theme, oh, golly, they just want to shove it in there, how do we do this in a way that sparks the reader's creativity, their innate intelligence? Because I do think picture book audiences and readers are very, very capable of complex thought. Maybe not complex vocabulary or sentence structure, which is another sort of obstacle a lot of writers fall into when they write for this audience. But how do we honor that picture book audience without hitting them over the head with that great universal theme that writers have come up with? How do we get that medicine in there without the kids tasting it through the syrup of the story if you will?

Peter: That is one of the big problems when people are just beginning. And actually, I know some people could be doing it for a long time, and I think they don't trust the power of your story to create conversations after the book. You know, when you close that book, your brain immediately starts figuring it out, and then you can start having conversations. And I think if you trust that process that if it's a powerful idea, the conversation is going to really just get started after you close the book. And trust that there will actually probably be a wise other hanging around, or it could be your twin that you can just book with.

And picture books, especially, are designed for two people, and when I look at a picture book, and it opens up their two sides I always thought, like, "That's kind of nifty," because when you're reading to a child, you know, they get half, and you get half.

And of course, the best kind of storytelling is indirect storytelling where you're not just narrating the story, that you're pausing, looking at the pictures, asking your young co-pilot what you're seeing and guessing what might happen. And then when you close that book, you can have that conversation about, you know, how brave the girl was or...

So, I think maybe people panic as they're writing their story and think, "Oh, I just want to make sure that they understand sharing is caring," and as you say, right? Grandma comes in and is like, "Sharing is caring, boys and girls," you know, it's not my cup of tea. I mean, some people don't notice it. I do. It makes my skin crawl a little bit because I think that... Well, again, less is more, and that's something I like to encourage people to do is take their lovely precious story that you've crafted and see if you can remove sentences. And does it still work? And, you know, the ultimate test is, could you tell it without any words? And, you know, would people be able to get it if they just sort of peaked into your world and you saw the bear on the motorcycle and had to figure out what's going on without words.

But I'm a big fan of words. I think, you know, people who are visually impaired, they need those words, so, you know, I'm a big believer that, you know, a picture is worth a thousand words, but if you can't see those pictures you're not going to get the essence of what the story is about without words. So, you know, don't forget how powerful those words are even if you're trying to do a very sparse story. Make sure that you've got enough of that story being told through words, and then, you know, if the pictures supply those extra layers, that's awesome.

Mary: I think that's something else that a lot of people who come from the writing side of things tend to struggle with, which is allowing room for illustration. A lot of the manuscripts I see there, you know, over 1,000 words, the character visuals are described in great detail. There are a ton of illustrator notes. We get a lot of action described in detail setting. What might your recommendation be as, you know, as a very, very highly trained and experienced illustrator? How do you tell a writer, "Hey, trust that your story is coming across and leave some room for the illustrations?" What sorts of things do you not need, for example, in a manuscript when it arrives on your doorstep?

Peter: Well, I think I'm probably not alone in having a really busy schedule, and, you know, if someone shows me something, especially a story, I would love to experience the story as quickly as possible. And when I get things that are overloaded with notes about basically the stage directions, it gets in the way of me experiencing the story, and I can make that little movie in my head even with...you know, there might be 12 sentences, and I can turn those 12 sentences into a book, into a movie in my head. So, I don't need all the extra stuff. Once we get busy in creating the book, if you have helpful notes on, you know, what the town square looks like and if it is really important to you, if there's elements that are really important to you. But I think it's also...In some ways, you're taking some of the magic away from the illustrator by giving all of those directions, and I think you absolutely write all those notes down because, if in your head you see this movie and it looks a particular way and, you know, it matters that it's set in Turkey, you know, write that down for yourself but, you know, save that for later.

And be surprised because the illustrator is gonna take your words, and he might take it in a completely different direction. That might completely delight you. If it doesn't, then you can say, "Do you know what? I was actually not...I was picturing it being less sci-fi, or, you know, more timeless." And so, again, I suppose go back to less is more and, if I can get the essence of the story in a short period of time, well, that works for me. Susan Verde showed me a folder when I met her. The first time I met her, she had a folder, and she had some poems. And I read one of these poems, and the first one was called "The Museum", and it took me about a minute to read, and I fell in love with it. I love the concepts of this little girl romping through a museum, and every piece of art makes her feel a different emotion. And that idea totally resonates with me, and I'm like, "Yes, I want the world to experience museums in a much more dynamic, emotional way." So, she had me. She had me with very few words. And there were no notes. It all fit on one 8.5 by 11 sheet of paper. And I told her, I said, "This is a book, and if anyone else illustrates it, I'll be jealous.” Holly McGhee at Pippin Properties, she got her three-book deal, which led to the I AM series and many, many other lovely books.

Mary: And talk about an explosion of color for the museum project.

Peter: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was a delight to do. Of course, I had to do my interpretations of van Gogh and Monet, and that was a really fun book project.

Mary: So, piggybacking off of that. How do you approach a project in your process as a creator? Let's say the idea for the story already exists, whether it's from your to-do list sketchbook or somebody else's project that comes from you. Give us a snapshot of Peter H. Reynolds in a studio. You've got your sharpie in hand. What happens? Well, if it's my book, I tend not to go to my studio. I usually find a nice noisy place. And there are other people who, you know, they need their barn in Vermont. It's far, far away from distractions. I actually kind of welcome them. I feed off of energy around me. So, you know, I'll find a cafe or a restaurant, and I just find a little spot, and I nestle in, and I put my sharpie to the page, and I will either start with the illustration, or I'll start with...well, I might know what the concept is about, then I just start writing and try to get into that flow space and let the story sort of tumble out, and then I will begin...you know, that film process begins. And really, in a way, it's like note-taking watching a film. If you're watching a movie and you were actually taking notes, describing the film so you could tell someone else later, you know, this happened, and that happened, and it's describing this film rather than writing a story. Does that make sense?

Mary: Yeah.

Peter: I think that when we're writing, you know, it's like, "Oh, I have to craft this beautiful sentence." And to me, it's more important to describe the film rather than write an eloquent story. You can always go back and say, "Well, is there a more eloquent way to say that the family gathered at the dinner table?" But the point you're trying to create that image like, "Okay, this is a chaotic house," and you finally get everyone to the dinner table. Like, that's the important part there. Then you can always go back and find a more eloquent way to say that. So, when I'm illustrating somebody else's story, I tend to...Actually, when I think about it, I actually probably end up in my studio, you know, because I have to kind of get into your head and that's different than getting into my head. So, I think it probably needs to be more quiet at home when I'm diving into your words and creating the film because I have to understand your film. And in that case, I'd probably end up...I do visual note-taking, and I'll take your story and then convert it into the film, and then I basically create a storyboard of the film.

Mary: Oh, interesting. So, it's like reverse funnels. For your ideas, it becomes words, and for their ideas, words become the storyboard.

Peter: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it actually is fun when I'm finished and I look at this very sloppy, messy...you know, to the rest of the world, it probably looks sloppy and messy. It's the language I understand, so I don't have to draw the whole horse. I just draw, well, horse-ish. And, you know, I can essentially illustrate a 40-page book in 2 hours in that language, in that very free-flowy, you know, sketchy, but essentially when I look at those little frames, and I don't have that much space because it's a storyboard, it's actually helpful because it constrains me to say, "Okay. All right. There's a horse, and there's a little girl on the back of the horse, and she's standing, you know, upside down, you know, and holding a crown or something. And that's a lot of information to get into a very small, you know, two-inch by three-inch space. And when I go to create the bigger illustration, the final illustration, I should go back to the little illustration, and I say, you know, "Hey, I was able to tell that whole story with really just, you know, maybe 12 lines." So, do I really need anything more? You know, maybe a wisp of something in the background, you know. Okay, she's outside, so there should be a tree, and maybe there's a bird flying. It's like, "Okay, bird flying must be outside." But I think that's really helpful too. Again, what's the least amount of line? And then also how few words do you really need to deliver the story or the idea?

Mary: I would love to direct a lot of writers to this advice, whether it is long-form pros for older audiences, picture book writers especially because I think the idea of going back to basics of constraining yourself so that you can focus on the bare essentials of the story, that is something I admire about your style, to begin with. There's a lot of white space on the page. It's almost like a spot illustration, which does bring me to something else. I would love to end the conversation on some of your other endeavors. But one of the other things I'm still kind of dying to know is, does it differ between a picture book project? And like you said, you also do these cover-spot illustrations. You kind of have even less I think to work with when you're just rendering a character for a chapter heading for a chapter book, let's say. And how does that work differ from the picture book work? That's what they...I don't know if it would make a difference, but, I mean, very, you're dealing with such an iconic character, I think. Did you feel pressured to sort of be, you know, the visual voice of such a beloved character?

Peter: Yeah. Well, when I started illustrating Judy Moody, I had no idea that there would even be a sequel, that there would be a book two or a book three and four and five and six and seven. Stink has a spinoff series, and there's the movie, No idea. When Mary Lee Donovan at Candlewick Press contacted me, she said, "Peter, we read The North Star and we love your sensibilities. We'd like you to take a look at this manuscript." And I looked at the manuscript. There's like, I don't know, 30 typed pages. And it was titled Judy Moody Was in a Mood. Not a Good Mood. A Bad Mood by Megan McDonald. And so, I read it over the weekend, and as I was reading, I was making my movie, and I jotted down little illustrations on 3 by 5 cards, and I ended up with, I don't know, about 45, 50 illustrations and I brought them into Candlewick for the next week, and I said, "I love the story. I think this character is a delightful, feisty girl, and she's very creative." And so, they saw this big stack of drawings, and they said, "Oh, wow. You know, we weren't...we're gonna give you the cover and some chapter headings." And they said, "But..." You know, they looked through them all, and we're like, "Oh, we like them all. Can we use all of them?" And so, I said, "Sure."

So, those are the rough ones. So, obviously, it took longer to do the final rendering of each one. And I set myself up after that with a lot of work because "Judy Moody and Stink" are very heavily illustrated due to that me just sort of letting loose, you know? Then when you do the first one, then the second one has to feel like the first one. And then, I guess it was the third book that the series really took off. And then by the fourth and fifth, I kind of knew I was...I had been very privileged to be invited into this iconic character's world, and I feel like a caretaker for that world. And, yeah, I'm really proud of where that series has gone. And, for me, I zigzag between doing my picture books and then doing Judy Moody, which some people are a bit surprised, "You did a lot of Judy Moody. Oh, I didn't realize you did Judy Moody." You know, I think as writers and illustrators, we have a little dial, and you can kind of dial to different frequencies. And there's a Judy Moody frequency, which is a little zanier and a little wackier, and then Stink is even wackier. A little more crazy, and in each one of the Stink books, Stink, he's an artist, so he has comics, so I get to be Stink drawing. And so, his drawings are, like, really crazy and fun. And then I can dial it, you know, up to The Dot. And then The Water Princess, which is, you know, based on a true story of the little girl in a village in Africa looking for water, and that's a much more realistic frequency, but I sort of had control of that dial.

Mary: Do you need time to reset? I mean, you mentioned going to a cafe for one type of project when it's your own. Do you need sort of an artistic palette cleanser, or are you able to sort of jump around?

Peter: I build in little retreats throughout my year, and I will find...and I call it the undisclosed location. I kind of spin a wheel, and I end up at someplace on the planet, and it might be, you know, five streets over, it might be in another country, but I unplug myself, and I just start sketching for myself. And I think it's a good piece of advice for all of us is spend more time being truly new. And I know that writers and illustrators, you know, we have to pay the rent, so you want to make your publisher happy, your agent happy, your editors happy, your audience happy, but you have to make sure you carve out time to make yourself happy. You know, write the story that you want to write, that you want to read and kind of forget about your audience in the nicest possible way, you know, and sketch something you want to sketch and don't have a plan.

That's what's lovely about a sketchbook is, you know, you don't have a plan. You don't have to make the characters, you know, the shirt match the previous page. I mean, illustrating is really hard work, you know, because there's consistency and proportion and getting things just right, and if there's a windmill in the background, it probably resembles a real, you know... Like, you know, if you're just sketching for yourself and letting the lines pour out or writing for yourself, you know, to me, that's the Holy Grail is to be able to do something that makes you happy. And there's a lot of incoming, you know, with social media, and your friends, and writers groups, and editors, and it's just a lot of incoming noise, and I think it's pretty rare to actually hear yourself think. And so, I guess that's my wish for everybody is to, you know, find that space for yourself. Find that space for yourself and hear yourself think and create something that you love.

Mary: So, you have mastered this work-life balance, you stinker. You just didn’t tell me.

Peter: Well, I've had a few years to try different methods but, yeah, I have a lot going on, but I do try to carve out time for myself, and I make a promise at night to read something but also open up my journal and make some kind of mark. And sometimes it's a poem. Sometimes it's a drawing. Sometimes a whole story spills out. It might be midnight, 1:00 in the morning. It's always fun to wake up in the morning, and I open up my journal, and I think, "Did I write something last night? Did I draw something?" And I'll be surprised. I'll look at the page and think, "I do not remember" because I was drifting into sleep. And I actually love that little moment in time when you got one foot in the real world and the other foot in the dream world and to actually be able to record something from the dream world, put it on paper before you drift completely into the dream world. It's pretty fantastic.

Mary: To use that moment instead of, you know, scrolling on Instagram or whatever a lot of us do when we're trying to get to sleep. So, to end, one of the things that keeps you busy is the work that you do with the Reynolds Center, which you've called the Reynolds Center TLC Center for Teaching, Learning, and Creativity. You have initiatives like International Dot Day. Can you speak to sort of...you've mentioned it early on this mission for inspiring others. You like to work with like-minded creators. What are you doing with these initiatives?

Peter: The Reynolds Center is our way to focus on, well, two things. One is TLC, and TLC stands for teaching, learning, and creativity, but it's also part of our philosophy that we need to make sure that we take care of teachers, especially in education. We don't fund schools the way we should. We don't support them and as much as we should. Some areas are luckier than others. And that's one of the focuses for us is how do we make sure that these creative experiences that some kids are lucky enough to have are experienced by every child no matter where they are, no matter what neighborhoods are in. And so, our work is trying to find creative ways to get creative tools into the hands of every child. And also, our mission is to make sure, especially in public education, that there are wonderful places for kids to be but also for teachers to be, and we have to be much, much more creative and innovative and trusting. Trust the teachers got into this profession and we are trying to encourage schools to really think about their creative climate, you know? What's the creative climate, like, in your school, and how can you make it better?

And International Dot Day has been a really amazing experience. Started with a teacher in Iowa, Terry Shea, whose kids asked if September 15, 2003, was the birthday of the book, was the book born on that day. So, they asked me, and I said, "Yeah, sure. So, they had a birthday party for the book, which turned into a...Well, it kind of went viral with his friends, teacher friends and a couple of hundred teachers the next year, and then a couple of thousand the next year and then tens of thousands the following year. And I think we're up in the 16 million marks made. Last year we had 184 countries participating.

Mary: It's a big birthday party.

Peter: Yeah. That is one big birthday party, and it's a day to celebrate creativity. And for older kids, you dive in deeper and say, "Well, what does it mean to make your mark? What does it mean to have impact? What are you going to do to make this world a better place? How can you use your talents and energy to make this world a better place?" And it's become a day-long celebration. Some places it's week-long, and then sometimes it becomes a whole year. And that makes us very happy, the Reynold Center, because we have managed to get schools to at least pause for one day because their creativity matter for us. It's really, really important to teach kids how to create bravely, and that can change the creative culture in a classroom, and a school, and a community. So, Dot Day shall continue to roll forward, September 15th-ish and you can get more information at thedotclub.org. There's information on how to enroll for next year and some sample activities. But the lovely thing about Dot Day is there really are no rules. It's however you want to celebrate creativity. If it's simply making a dot and signing it, you're in. But there's much more elaborate celebrations so you can learn about on the site.

Mary: A dot is pretty much the scope of my artistic talent. But I love that idea, and I think that you've been so clear in this interview about the partners that help make a picture book possible, not just publishers, right? A lot of writers are very focused on getting published, getting that agent partner, that publishing partner, or a self-publishing a partner or getting into that funnel, getting out there, but I think something that we really tend to forget when we're creating is that you do have a co-pilot or several co-pilots, especially in the picture book space, the child, but also the person that brings the book to life, the reader, and in a lot of cases, it's gonna be a caretaker, a teacher, and writers are all part of communities where there are schools, where there are classrooms, where there are independent bookstores. What can a writer do to make their community better creatively? What would you recommend if they want to reach out, volunteering in libraries, in classrooms? What can we provide for teachers to support them in our communities?

Peter: Especially in public schools, they're very under-resourced, and they're designed for help or for creative people to come in and share the process and showing that it's possible.

Mary: It's contrary to fostering creativity. Like you were saying, kids are taught facts, and then they regurgitate the facts, and it's a very systematic approach that's not open-ended. So, it's sort of the polar opposite of fostering creativity in the classroom.

Peter: Right. I think the Holy Grail in schools is teaching kids to think for themselves. To me, that's what creativity is about is looking at a blank page and not being terrified, but being excited and being able to have at least some inkling of what that page could transform into. So, you know, the best way to teach kids how to be creative is to show them what it looks like, and if you are a writer or illustrator, you have that power to show, especially young people, kids and also can let teachers and grownups around you that it's exciting that a blank page is an exciting thing that it's all about possibilities, and ultimately, it's teaching people how to be more brave. And, you know, we created people who are conjuring things out of nothing. And you got to be kind of brave to be able to do that. It's like, you know, someone pulling you out of the audience and giving you a microphone and says, you know, "Go." You've got to conjure something out of nothing, and you've got to be brave to do that.

So, if we can teach our kids that, that would be a wonderful thing. So, you know, the world definitely needs more creativity. We are in a very, very tough spot right now, and the only way we're going to move forward is through creative breakthroughs. And so, people with creative dispositions are going to help lead the way so that we can, you know, move forward and be in a better place. And so, I sort of remind everybody to activate their voices and be heard and inspire other people to do the same thing. I wrote a book called "Say Something", and that book is really a challenge to make sure that every voice is heard, whether it's through words, or through art, or through dance, or through just showing up. Everybody has to celebrate their voice, and so the people out there who are creative and writing books and illustrating. You know how to do it, so invite other people to do it too because we need everybody.

Mary: Peter H. Reynolds, you are a treasure. Thank you so much for your time and for that bit of inspiration for all writers, illustrators, artists, or just human beings, to get out there, boost creativity in your life, and also in your community, in the lives of young people. I think that is a mandate that we can all get behind as fans and writers of children's books, especially. And I love your work personally and professionally. I love the message that you're spreading. I love what you've done for the community in all the things that you do. And I really want to thank you for joining us today, for your time, your expertise, and the inspiration that you bring. So, Peter H. Reynolds, my pleasure to host you here. This has been the Good Story Podcast. My name is Mary Kole. Here's to a good story.

Thank you so much for tuning into "The Good Story Podcast." My name is Mary Kole, and I want to extend my deepest gratitude to the Good Story Company team: Kristen Overman, Amy Wilson, Rhiannon Richardson, Kate London, Michal Leah, Jenna Van Rooy, Len Cattan-Prugl, Steve Reiss, and Kaylee Pereyra. Please check us out at goodstorycompany.com, and I would love it if you joined Good Story Learning, a monthly membership with new content added where you can learn everything you ever wanted to know and more about writing and publishing for writers of all categories and ability levels. Thanks again for listening. And here's to a good story.

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