Gabriela Pereira discusses her journey to founding DIY MFA, the do-it-yourself alternative to a Masters degree in writing, while living with bipolar disorder. Along the way, she shares tips about unconventional learning styles, finding a writing community in your backyard, and using storytelling to effectively market your work.

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Transcript of Good Story Podcast Episode 21, Gabriela Pereira, Founder of DIY MFA

Mary: Hello, this is Mary Kole and "The Good Story Podcast," helping writers craft a good story. With me, you will hear from thought leaders related to writing, and sometimes not, about topics important to writers of all categories and ability levels. Here is to telling a good story.

Thank you everyone for joining me. This is Mary Kole with "Good Story Podcast." With me, I have Gabriela Pereira of DIY MFA. Welcome.

Gabriela: Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here today.

Mary: Why don't you tell everybody listening a little bit more about yourself, about DIY MFA, anything you really wanna mention to start us off here.

Gabriela: Yeah. So, I am the founder and instigator of DIY MFA, which is the "Do It Yourself Master of Fine Arts" in writing. Essentially, we help writers get the knowledge without the "college." You can't see me doing this, but I'm doing little air quotes here. That's like our tagline. And I like to think of it as we build theme parks for the mind. So, we create immersive, engaging, and interactive educational experiences. And we're constantly pushing the envelope and challenging ourselves to bring new... to live on that edge of the final frontier of online education. That's really what I find exciting. So, yeah. That's what we do, and it's a lot of fun.

Mary: And so you have a course that is your flagship that you run, and applications or registrations are opening up again in September, right?

Gabriela: Correct. So, we run our DIY MFA 101 program, which is like our entry program. And don't be fooled by the name 101, it's just we use that moniker just to indicate that it's the foundational course. It's where you're introduced to really what the methodology is behind DIY MFA. And I mentioned that we build theme parks for the mind, it sounds all exciting, but it's also a school of thought. This isn't just an alternative MFA, it's not a would be MFA, it really is a whole other way of thinking about writing education. So, yeah. So, that foundation piece is really important because it allows people to really immerse themselves in the three pillars that we consider is really essential to your writing education. And those are, writing, reading, and building your community.

Mary: Very nice. And as a traditional MFA holder, I definitely have a lot of opinions about my experience and potential shortcomings of the traditional structure. So, I love that you're instigating and you are... To put it in dudebro tech terms, you're disrupting the MFA space.

Gabriela: Yeah. I am also guilty of having an MFA, a traditional MFA. And in writing for children, which would... don't get me wrong, I actually really loved my MFA experience. And I started DIY MFA as a way of allowing me to continue post-graduation. I would have been one of those students who just stuck around on campus forever and never left. So, yeah. DIY MFA started as a way to keep that fire burning. And then I started thinking more deeply about it and thinking about, where are the gaps in the traditional systems? What are things that we can add to it to make someone's writing education even more comprehensive, especially in terms of knowledge of the publishing side and knowledge of platform and the marketing stuff that a lot of traditional programs don't really go anywhere near with a 10-foot pole? So, that's what we've been focusing on is not really... It's not like we hate on the MFA, the MFA serves traditional, especially literary fiction writers and non-fiction and poets incredibly well. And if you've got the disposable income to get a traditional degree, I'm all for it. But there are a lot of folks out there who don't have that privilege, and so what happens to them? Those are the folks that we want to help with our program.

Mary: And I think... I just want to validate. I do think that there are wonderful MFA programs out there and there is nothing quite like that workshop experience where you are deeply digging into your own work, but also the work of others. You learn so much just by getting together with a group of like-minded people and workshopping the work. And I think that is really the benefit, whether it's a low rez or like a full-time MFA program of just existing in that cocoon for a while. But I say cocoon very much on purpose because I do feel like some people need that environment in order to meet a benchmark goal like completing a manuscript. But being in a cocoon is rather insular and at least, as was true in my program, I didn't find a lot of interest or curiosity. And in fact, I might go as far as to say there was some slight hostility about issues like marketing, issues like well, what is the industry doing? Because I think where the MFA is great and it's focused on craft, it can also be a bastion of some slight snobbery where it's like the craft is the only thing and publishing will come and marketing will come if your craft is strong. But in the real world, that's not entirely true.

Gabriela: Yeah. Absolutely. And there are definitely certain things that can stand to be improved. I think the craft is a wonderful thing, and DIY MFA is all about the craft. But it is also a very specific type of craft in a traditional MFA program. It's very focused on literary fiction or creative non-fiction or poetry. And a lot of genre writers are left out in the cold. There are maybe two or three genre-focused MFAs in the entire world. I went to one of the few writing for children MFA programs, specifically because I wanted to write fantasy. And there was no way I would have been able to do that in a traditional program. Whereas, the writing for children programs tended to be a little more open-minded about genre stuff. But that is aside, there are definitely a lot of, like you said, that immersion in the craft, that immersion with like-minded people, really important. Not something that you can't get elsewhere, it just takes a bit more effort. You have to be a little more intrepid and some writers really do need that support, so that they aren't scrambling to build that community, and they can actually do their writing. The problem is, what happens when you graduate? There's the issue.

Mary: Yeah. And there was no... And again, I enjoyed my program. I did it. I don't want this to be like a bashing session...

Gabriella: No. No means. Yeah.

Mary: But it's like there's no aftercare. And then you try to ask a question like, "Well, how many of your graduates are published?" And then it's like, "Well..." And then things get squirmy and squiggly. But it's like, yeah, once you're out of that cocoon and you've completed your thesis manuscript and you've gotten education, and you've immersed yourself in that community, things feel very different once you're out on your own, and you lose touch with maybe some of your classmates, and there's nothing to take its place. And I think you and I would agree very, very strongly with the sentiment that writers need ongoing education, ongoing community. They need to feel a part of things even while they craft, which is largely sitting in your room and... There's this great quote about reading is just looking at a book and hallucinating wildly. So, sitting in your room with your laptop and hallucinating wildly, that's writing. But then the community piece really atrophies once you leave a traditional program.

Gabriela: Yeah. So, building a lot of that up is definitely a challenge. And in terms of building it up in an online setting, that can be even more challenging. That's actually been one of the fun parts of my job, has been figuring out how do we do this when people are in different time zones, and folks are in Asia and Australia and the United States and Europe and everywhere? And how do you create that sense of community and that support without having the in-person factor? So, it's challenging, but I have accepted this worthy challenge. And hopefully, we seem to be doing okay because our students seem to enjoy the program. So, yay.

Mary: So, I will put this to you to see if you have any insights, other than your program, of course, which is fantastic. But I often hear questions in this vein of, how do I find a community of writers? And the standard answer is, "Well, join a writing forum" or "Find a Facebook group." But it seems that finding like-minded people, at the same level of motivation... Things online make everything more convenient, but there's also less investment and things tend to peter out when there's no kind of in-person meetings and there's less accountability to people, less of that relationship component. So, how do we leverage the online environment to make these types of community connections?

Gabriela: So, I'm gonna be a little contrarian to what I just said about fostering community online because it is hard. It is really hard, and there aren't many online areas. There are pockets, you can occasionally find a really good Facebook group. I love the Facebook group called CreateifWriting run by Kirsten Oliphant. I love Andi Kambo Floyd's Community. She's got a Facebook group and then I think she also runs a community online that's more intensive. So, there are pockets here and there. Jane Friedman's Facebook group, I think it's The Business of Being a Writer is also super engaged with smart people. And obviously, DIY MFA our Word Nerds Unite Facebook group, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that.

But aside from that, I think it is hard and you have to shop around because each community has its own vibe and you wanna get a sense for like, do you really fit in with this crowd? Because if you're gonna be connecting with them and asking questions about how do I solve this problem with my manuscript, you wanna be able to feel like you're among friends and not the one weirdo among all these normal people. But the other way to do it is to meet in person. So, before pandemic world, one of my favorite ways to make writing friends was to go to conferences. I think that's how you and I connected the first time, was at a writing event in New York City at SCBWI.

There are tons of amazing organizations, different societies for different genres. So, if you're writing mystery, there's Mystery Writers of America, if you're writing romance, there's RWA, if you're writing children's books, there's SCBWI. There's all sorts of incredible groups. And a lot of them put on local events as well as the bigger, flashy conferences. So, they may have the one big conference every year where there's a thousand people, but that's intimidating. I don't know about you, I freak out at those things. Once I have my conference besties I'm like, "Okay. I've got my crew. I'm good."

Mary: You have your roommates... But it's like I would go to the SCBWI, LA, or the New York conference and it really feels like you're on this weird cruise ship.

Gabriela: Yes. Of course.

Mary: And it's like this insular environment and everyone is like you, but everyone... Writers as a whole, we do tend to be more in our heads. And so, the socialization part may come very easily to some people, but some other people need a little help. And so it's just like it's a middle-grade dance on a cruise ship for writers in your category.

Gabriela: Yeah. And it can take a while to make friends if you're not super social, speaking for a friend. But it's one of those things where if you go to these smaller events... Oftentimes, these organizations have local chapters and these local chapters might have monthly meetings.

Mary: Yeah.

Gabriela: They might even be running these monthly meetings now on Zoom because of the pandemic so you can connect with people even from the comfort of your own home.

Mary: To be honest, not couch, not desk, bed, for the most part.

Gabriela: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's a reason that you can only see people from the waist up on Zoom. I believe that most people have given up on pants during this pandemic.

Mary: I won't tell you what I'm wearing and not wearing right now.

Gabriela: Yeah. I'm just not gonna be able to remove that image from my head now. Anyway...

Mary: I'm gonna take that as a compliment. That could be taken one of two ways, and I am choosing positivity.

Gabriela: Anyway, so I think in terms of where do you find communities, I think going local is really the way to go because it allows you to meet people who, if you make friends, you could actually see them more frequently than once every year. And you can get coffee with your new writing bestie, that you met at the local event last week. And at the same time, it's also a less of a financial burden. Because if it's local, you probably don't have to travel as far, you might even be able to stay at home, in your own bed, instead of going to a hotel. So, there's all these considerations. And when writers come to me and ask, how do I do this? How do I build community? My first answer is always, stay local, look for what you have right nearby in your backyard.

You'll be surprised at what exists right in your backyard. New York City is... I live in New York and so there's all this stuff going on. But I've been out in suburbs of Philadelphia that have vibrant, vibrant writing communities. So, it's not just New York, it's not just like the big cities that have these pockets of literary stuff happening. There's stuff happening everywhere. So, check your local libraries, there might be events that they run, any number of things. But staying local makes it easier for you to stay in touch after and it also makes it easier for you to attend the events in the first place.

Mary: Yeah. One of my guests was Chuck Sambuchino, and he's doing these writing day workshops, where he actively tries to create events like that in areas that might be small to mid-size cities that don't have that presence. And tons of people show up. So, finding an event may be a little bit more difficult, but there are definitely initiatives and events going on. The SCBWI does a fantastic job. It's run by volunteers. And so they have these regional chapters, usually one or a couple per state. California obviously has many different regions. But their volunteers are just kicking butt and have really stepped up to the challenge during the pandemic. They manage to get agents and publishing house editors as guests, no matter what the region is. So, it really is just a wealth of engagement opportunity, no matter where you live.

Gabriela: Yeah. Even some states even have their own writing organizations that are statewide. I know California has the California Writers Club. It's a club that has different regions throughout California and the writers are of all different genres. And I remember I spoke at their high desert event one year, really well put together. The sense I get is that it's also people who are volunteering and they're very engaged, they're members and also running the show, which I think always bodes well when the people who are running things are also the people who enjoy the content that they're putting together. Because that means they're putting together stuff that they would also want. So, yeah. Doing a little sleuthing never hurts anyone.

Mary: And international listeners can also be served by these things. The SCBWI, for example, you and I both have a background in children's writing so that's why we keep coming back to the SCBWI, but it's also a very well-run organization. But they have chapters worldwide, and usually English-speaking, a lot of expats. But I went to Japan and Hong Kong to speak to their chapters there and all my friends were like, "Haha, how are you gonna speak to the regional chapters there?" And there are a lot of expats and most of them are writing in English.

Gabriela: Yeah. So, there's just a wealth of opportunity out there. And it's about knowing where to look and just taking a little bit of time. The same research chops that we use to research random things in our books, like killing and murdering people in weird ways, can also be used for other productive ends like finding writers' groups.

Mary: Something that won't get you on some kind of FBI list.

Gabriela: Exactly.

Mary: So that being said, okay, we want writers to continue their educations, whether it's with a program like DIY MFA, whether it's with a traditional MFA, whether it's with a critique group. I run a small group workshop called "Story Mastermind" or a regional conference where you get together with other writers or just self-study with writing reference books. That's a lot. And so I kind of, on the one hand, wanna boost writing, reading, community, your three pillars I think are crucial to the writing life and to getting better and striving toward your goals as a writer. But our conversation is actually about the writer, him or her or themselves, that mental health piece of, you're doing all this stuff, but how are you, the person? How are you doing? What does self-care and mental health look like for writers?

Gabriela: Yeah. So, before I address the mental health stuff because there's all a lot to say there, I do want to highlight something. So, as I've talked about writing, reading, and community, I like to reframe those as writing being the creative output, reading being your creative input, and then building community is the exchange of creativity. So, when writers are overwhelmed, what I always tell them is output first. Get the output out because you can always refill later with input. And refilling, creative exchange and creative input tends to be a little less taxing on an intellectual level. It can be much harder to get the words on the page than it is to...I don't wanna say passively because I don't think of reading as a passive activity, but it's a less intense activity. So, I always tell writers, put output as your priority, get that done during...whatever the best time you can give it in your day. You may not be able to give it the most optimal time of your day because you have a day job or you've got kids or whatever.

But whatever of the time you have available, the best time should go to the output. And then everything else you can always readjust. I think of it as like, the time you have available is like a pie and you wanna give the first piece of pie to your writing. The reading and community can get later pieces of pie. They get served after and they still get pie, but they don't get as much and they don't get first dibs. Now, sometimes you might have stuff going on like you're releasing a book or you're at a conference where the community piece takes a bigger piece of the pie. But I would still stress, give your writing, even if it's a tiny slice of pie, give your writing its slice first, so that you reserve that optimal time for your creative output. Otherwise, if there's no creative output, what's the point of what we're doing?

Mary: And do you prescribe, in ideal circumstances, that people try to write every day, or are you maybe a little looser on that? How often do we eat that first piece of pie, to make the most of our writing practice?

Gabriela: So, the word practice is key. I believe that practice is like...that's the thing with writing. And so I'm a big fan of deliberate practice, I'm also a big fan of productive practice. Doing something out of rote just because you're supposed to do it, that is not practice, that's insanity. I come from a musical background. I played the violin since I was four, I still play it today, although not right now because my right hand is in a splint. But this has been a part of my life for many, many years. And when you practice, if you're just zoning out and you're not focused on what you're doing, you're not really practicing. That's not productive time. You might as well put your instrument away and do something else with your time.

So, the same thing is true with your writing. If you're doing something out of rote just because you think you're supposed to do it that way, that's not productive. So, I'm always a big fan of being intentional with what you're doing. I also am a big fan of iterating and testing things out. So, if you're not sure what the best writing rhythm for you is, try a few different things. Think of it as like a science experiment and you're the guinea pig. And so you try out like, "Am I a morning writer?" Do that for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. And then if it turns out...like if I have to wake up and write at 5 a.m., I will be a nightmare to live with.

So, I learned that very quickly. So, [inaudible 00:23:54.393] things. I tend to do my best writing when I'm writing by hand which, again, is unfortunately not able to do right now. But I write by hand in a notebook and I like to do it surreptitiously like I'm cheating on my other work in order to write. I have to get into that weird mindset, and this is how I produce. It's really weird, but it's what works. So, you have to test it out. Every person's process is different. This is why I think people who prescribe like write X number of times a week or write this many words, that is bull hunky. No. Do what works for you. You have to figure out what works for you and then you do the thing that works for you. And set up checkpoints for yourself to make sure that you're not getting into that rote.

Because let's face it, even a system that works for you right now, in a month or two months might not work anymore. You might grow out of it, you might have different circumstances. I know for me a big factor is I've got two kids, and when they were infants and toddlers, my availability for writing and DIY MFA was very different from what it looks like now that they're in elementary school, and I can be like, "Mornings are mine again." So, your life changes. The pandemic has forced us to readjust our lives. And having to work from home, share our home space... My spouse and I, my husband and I, share a home office now. It's really weird. I'm not sure how I feel about this. So...

Mary: Oh, man. I feel you so hard. I've been working from home my entire career. I like to joke, way before it was cool. Now I have this person here all the time.

Gabriela: Yeah. It's been interesting. There is a part of me...I've acquired a deep level of respect for the work that my husband does. I used to think he would just go off to his office and twiddle his thumbs all day and now I'm like, "Oh, look, you really do stuff. Yay." And I think he's also gotten a certain level of respect for what I do and he's like, "Oh, wow, you're really at this all day. This is crazy." But again, our lives changed. There's an ebb and flow and so our writing has to continue to evolve to keep up with it. So, you have to have the scientific approach, you have to take the experimental mindset, this entrepreneurial mindset and keep testing, keep pushing the envelope. What can your process look like tomorrow? It's a living, breathing, organic thing, it's not a fixed prescribed thing. And anyone who tells you that it's fixed and prescribed, run, don't walk in the opposite direction.

Mary: I really like that perspective just because you hear 1,500 words a day or 1667 in the case of NaNoWriMo, but is it really sustainable? Which is why I tend to tell people...my advice is nowhere near as good as yours, but I'm like, every other day. There's less room for failure and shame and guilt and all of these things that we tend to do to ourselves naturally as writers when we don't set this very inflexible bar for ourselves.

Gabriela: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And here's the thing too. NaNoWriMo works for some writers. There are writers who thrive with that rhythm. And Stephen King, he just clocks in his 2,000 words a day. Yay. I wish I could be like him. I am not, but that's the thing about the prescribed advice is that it assumes that we are all exactly the same. But we are all individual humans with our own lives and our own personalities and our own abilities. And there's no way that a piece of blanket advice could possibly apply to every single person in the exact same way. This goes back to the practice thing. If you don't practice your instrument for six months, are you really playing that instrument anymore? I don't know. Probably not.

You need to have a heart-to-heart with yourself. Are you really writing if you haven't touched it in a year? Maybe not. So, that's where you need to check in with yourself. Do you need to be writing hardcore? It's like, "Am I practicing...?" If I were playing the violin, would I be practicing the eight hours a day that I did when I was going for concerto competitions? No, I don't do that anymore. But there was a time in college where literally that is what I did for weeks at a time because it's where I was in my process. So, it's the same thing. You might not be writing at the same intense clip that you would be doing if you're pushing to get a manuscript done, but you keep your hand in the game. You keep your fingers loose, you stay warmed up, and you practice your scales so that you don't lose touch with the instrument the whole time.

Mary: So, yes. If we're working on a manuscript, we have a goal, we're in a nice rhythm. That's one mode of the writer. Tell me now a little bit more about how you then weave in the more passive...but again, we don't wanna say passive because we ideally are reading actively and participating actively in our platforms and in our communities. But how do we weave in these other supportive practices of then the reading and the community?

Gabriela: Well, for reading, for me, it's just pleasure. I love reading. It's my favorite thing. I don't have to try very hard to weave reading into my life, it happens. I think if a writer has to force themselves to read, then you probably have one of two scenarios going on. Either you're reading the wrong stuff, in which case, you should probably look for something you like to read. And if what you're writing is like the stuff that you don't enjoy reading, then maybe you need to reevaluate what you're writing.

Mary: Mm-hmm.

Gabriela: If that's not the case, if you actually are just not reading at all because you just don't wanna read, you don't enjoy it, then you probably need to re-evaluate your life choices. Maybe you were not meant to be a writer because it's like a chef who doesn't eat. How can you possibly create something if you do not want to consume the very thing that you enjoy creating or that you want to enjoy creating? How can you even enjoy creating it if you don't wanna consume it? That to me is mind-boggling. So, I don't think writers struggle with the need to read. It might be more of a time issue. How do I find the time? How do I figure it out? How do I slide it in there?

I personally find time to read by sneaking it in. Again, it's the whole surreptitious thing. So, I hide under the covers at night and I read for 45 minutes before I fall asleep. I have my Kindle app on my phone. So, if I'm reading a book at home and then I'm on the go, I can read it while I'm on the subway. I'm not riding subways very much these days, but back when New York City was functional, my commute was a wonderful...or my just dashing around the city while I'm waiting to pick up my kids outside. You're sitting in the carpool lane to pick up your kids at school, pull out your phone and read for five minutes. It doesn't have to be a lot, but you can get through a book if you're reading a little bit here and there.

The community part is harder, I think, to do on the fly because it involves other people, so there's a bit more coordination involved. I've personally found that it's easier to batch that stuff together. So, I'd rather go to a conference and just binge on community for three days. And then I have a major community hangover and then I'm done, and I focus on my writing again. But that's just me because I'm a total antisocial weirdo. So, that's what works for me. But again, you have to test it, you have to figure out what works for you. Some people nee

d that weekly accountability buddy that they get together with on Zoom. There was a friend of mine, and she and I would periodically, just a little while ago, we'd get on Skype. Before Zoom, there was a thing called Skype and we'd get on Skype and we just have our videos going. And we'd be in different states, in different parts of the country, each of us working on our writing as if we were sitting in a cafe across from each other. You can totally do this, it's not rocket science. So, yeah. It takes a little more coordination. You have to figure out what level of regularity works best for you. For me, I find it's much more effective to open up a weekend and have that be like, "All right. I'm gonna just have a community binge and then be done." Other people want more of the continuous contact and it's whatever works for you.

Mary: So, before we pivot to the mental health and juggling all these things and the effect of all of this on the writer, there's one last piece which vexes a lot of writers. And community can be vexing... I tell people that I play an extrovert really well on TV, but I do need that personal time to recharge, that silent time of just focus and just being in my head thinking my thoughts. So, marketing is something that I feel a lot of writers come to me, they struggle with, they don't know how to start, they don't know what they're doing. Once they do start, they resent it. Talk about if you're reading and you don't like it or you're writing something and you don't like it, well, marketing, I feel like universally is disliked by a lot of creative people because it feels schlocky and self-serving and non-creative in the way that creating art is. There's that art in commerce divide that comes into it emotionally. So, in addition to all of the other things that writers do, how does marketing fit into it?

Gabriela: So, this is where I think a lot of writers get it wrong where they think that marketing is this whole other thing that they need to figure out, that it's this other skill set, that they have to learn all these new things, that it's yucky and it's gross, and it's different from our writing, which is not yucky and is not gross. And yet, the exact same skills that we use on the page when we are writing our books, particularly fiction, these are the same skills that you will need to employ in order to market your book. So, for example, if you are writing a character, you're not just gonna write the character randomly. You get into the character's head, you put yourself into the mind of that character, what would they think? What would they feel? What's their motivation? Why are they feeling this way in this particular moment of the scene? Guess what, that is the exact same thing you need to do to get inside the minds of your readers so that you understand who you're writing for. So, instead of using the skill to get into your character's head, all you have to do is redirect that skill to get into your reader's head.

Another skill that writers have, that is amazing, and that we don't realize totally applies to our marketing is our world-building skills. So, when we're building worlds, we're not telling our reader everything. That would be an info dump and that is like writing class 101. You do not dump all the information on your reader right out of the gate, we pick and choose, we decide, we curate the world. We don't just create a world and throw it all at our reader, we curate it so that the readers receiving bits of our world, as they need it, in order to navigate the story. Well, the same thing is true with your marketing. You're not gonna throw all your information at your audience right out of the gate, they're gonna hate you, they're gonna be bored, they're gonna think you're gross and salesy. You curate the information, you craft an experience for them so that they are slowly getting to know you over the course of this story which is your relationship with your readers.

Which brings me to the whole story idea. The same way that there is a beginning, middle, and end to every story be right on the page, there is also a three-act structure with an inciting incident, with a point of no return, a midpoint, and the dark night of the soul and the climax in every single sales conversation. Whether you are having that conversation with a client, whether you're having that conversation over a series of many, many emails to your email list, whether you're having that conversation on a page that summarizes your book, whether it's the description on the back cover of your book, you still have the three-act structure of story, except instead of the story being the narrative of your book, the story is now your relationship. You're taking your reader by the hands and you're getting them to the point where, at the climax, they go, "Oh, my gosh, I have to read this book. I want to read it right now." That is all writing. We already know this stuff.

Most marketers spend years. I have spoken in front of thousands of marketers at marketing conferences who don't know this stuff. And it blows their minds when I explain it to them. And they're like, "Whoa." Writers know this already. We are good at this stuff. So, it shouldn't be that much of a stretch, we just need to know how to redirect our knowledge from the page to our marketing. But it is the exact same skill set. This whole idea of the mindset shift for the marketing and from writing to marketing is one of my favorite things to teach. In fact, we just launched and just closed enrollment for one of our courses that focuses exactly on this. So, it's one of my favorite things.

Mary: Like using storytelling during the marketing process, building that bridge between the two?

Gabriela: Yes. And just the whole like, how do you market stuff as a writer because that whole thing is hard.

Mary: So, here we have the totality of the writer's existence, from the output to the input, to getting out there as a person, getting out there in terms of your work. It's a lot and I think mental health has really and, happily so, come to the forefront of the conversation that we're all having as people in the last year.

Gabriela: Yeah.

Mary: But it's a lot. It's a lot for one person to try and juggle because like you said, we don't all have unlimited time to devote to our writing, to being a writer. We have these jobs, we have these families on top of everything else.

Gabriela: Yeah. So, when I talk about mental health, one of the very first things I say is that DIY MFA was not my first choice. And this is a little shocking. When people hear me say this, they're like, "Whoa," because people assume that because I love DIY MFA so much and I built this thing that I'm so excited about, that it had...you couldn't possibly have this be your runner up option. No, it was. When I was younger, from when I was about five years old until, gosh, maybe 2006, 2007, my goal was to be the Willy Wonka of the toy industry. And I was going to build and design toys. I had my eye on the CEO office of Mattel or Hasbro. That was where I was heading. That's what I wanted to create. And I was moving up through the industry, I had my dream job, I had just gotten promoted, and all of these things. And then I realized that my commute was incompatible with my mental health because the thing is, I have bipolar disorder. And at the time, I was not medicated because, in order to be medicated, I wouldn't be able to drive a car. And the only way I could commute to my job was to drive a car.

So, I, for a long time went unmedicated. I was ignoring the fact that this was a part of me. And I'd have these ups and downs, I'd occasionally end up in the ER or something like that and it wasn't fun. But I'd always come back and pull myself back and like, 'All right. I'm gonna get it together." And every time it was like chipping away at me more and more. Every time I'd have a breakdown, I'd be like, "This has to be the last one, I can't keep living like this.' And then it occurred to me that there is a way to not keep living like this, I need to be medicated. And so I had to make a very difficult choice. And it's absurd to me now, looking back on it, that that was even a choice, that I would have to choose between a career and medication. That would be like telling someone who has some physical ailment, you can't get your chemotherapy and also have a job.

It's absurd to me now, looking back at that. And yet, I was so afraid of the stigma, I was so afraid of what would happen if people knew that I lied and said, "I'm gonna be stepping down from my job so that..." And I didn't tell anyone why that was. So, from there, once I left my dream job, I basically had to... It was not fun. It was rough. That was one of the most difficult choices I've ever had to make. But it was still a choice and I wanna make that very clear. It wasn't just me being forced to do something or... It was an active and deliberate choice that I made. And when that happened, I realized, okay, now I get to choose what I'm gonna create so that I don't have to make that impossible choice again.

So, writing was the logical next thing to do because I figured, what easier commute is there than from my bed to my living room? I could even write from bed, I could have my laptop right there. So, I realized that writing might be a much more compatible existence with the fact that bipolar does have its ups and downs. Even today, even though I'm now very well medicated... I haven't had an episode since 2011. So, that's like a whole 10 years without having a complete breakdown. That's amazing. And yet, there's still that worry and there still are moments where I have to go off the grid and people don't hear from me for a while because things are not great.

So this existence has, I think, given me a perspective on... I think in a way, what a lot of people are feeling in the pandemic, I felt for a long time anyway, just the sort of you have to honor your own reality, you have to honor who you are and what you're going through. And I think what a lot of folks have had to figure out in the pandemic, which is like the self-care stuff and prioritizing your health and things like that. I got thrown in the deep end of that pool when I was in my 20s, and I figured out pretty quickly how to swim. So, now I'm like, "All right. If I can help folks pull themselves out of the deep end of the pool, I'm happy to do so."

Mary: And I think it's interesting, people sometimes have a really hard time realizing that they're struggling or knowing how to prioritize themselves or...especially for parents and people who have a lot of job responsibilities, feeling okay with prioritizing themselves because that's not what tends to be rewarded. Especially in American culture, there's this premium put on sacrifice and you're always available. And I feel like... I often joke that it's like every year I'm like, "This is the year when things finally slow down." And it's the opposite every year and I've felt like I've been at my max for probably the last 10 years. But somehow my max always expands with every year and every new set of projects and responsibilities.

We carry so much, but it's added incrementally so maybe we don't even realize how much we're carrying until something like the pandemic comes along, or your decision to basically choose between your dream job and taking better medical care of yourself, and then it's like, "Oh, I didn't even realize that I had been carrying this."

Gabriela: Yeah. There's so much to unpack there. On one hand, I do think that there is a lot of damage that is done by the media, by the way our culture talks about mental health. And I can go into my whole spiel about how language shapes are the stigma around mental health, but I won't go into that just yet. But the thing that... What you said about we often don't realize that we're struggling and that there's this premium placed on taking care of others. And I think this is...not to be sexist, but I think for a lot of women, this is especially true because of the way that gender roles are still presented in our society. There is that element. It took forever for me to convince my son's school and my daughter's school that my husband is the primary parent. They shouldn't be calling me when there's a problem at school, they should call him. It took forever for us to get that... And this is a very progressive school, it's just hard I think for these mental shifts to happen, culturally.

Mary: Our family is the same way. Yeah. My husband plays primary caregiver to the kids and it's still...you hear people that say, "Oh, it's so fun that you're babysitting today."

Gabriela: Yeah. No. It's really... That, I will not get up on that soapbox. But it's funny. On one hand, our culture has this whole set of stigmas around self-care and mental health. And then every time we get on an airplane, what do we hear? "Put your own oxygen mask on first before you help the person next to you." Well, this is like choosing my own health was me putting my oxygen mask on first so that I can then help my kids and have kids, and be a good spouse to my husband. I think we need to reframe how we think about... It's not self-care because it's not just us taking care of ourselves. When we self-care, we are actually caring for everyone around. It's like extended care or something. There's a ripple effect that starts at the center. And if we're the center of our self-care ripple and we don't take care of ourselves, then nothing happens, there is no ripple effect.

Mary: Yeah. So, how do we recognize if we might need to circle back to the center of the ripple? And what are some strategies to enact? And I completely agree with you, this idea of self-care being this special activity that you have to carve out time for. Ideally, it would become just a part of regular life and be normalized in that way. How do we move in that direction?

Gabriela: So, for starters, I hate the term self-care, to be honest, because it has all of these things attached to it. For me, it looks like...managing my mental health looks like getting my allies on board. So, a big part of normalizing mental health in our household has been getting our kids on board. My kids know mommy has bipolar, they know what it is, they know what it's about. They may not know all the gory details of things that have gone down in the past, and they probably never will, but they know enough to understand what's going on. And they've known since they were really little. My daughter, I think was maybe two when I started talking to her about this. There's language that you can use to explain mental health stuff to small kids.

So, if you're a caregiver, if you're a parent, whether you're the primary caregiver or not, having these conversations and having it be a normal part of just your home culture can help them make it feel less lonely. And it also makes it easier...not easier, it's never easy, but it makes it so that when I'm having a bad day, I can turn to my kids and say, "Hey, look, mom is having one of her bipolar days today. I'm feeling really down."

Then they don't become like the adversary. They're not upset because mommy has checked out or mommy is not engaging with me or she doesn't want to see me or she's sleeping all day. They're part of the team. Now, they're the helpers. They're like, "All right, Mommy. What can we do? How can we help?" And then once I'm back, it's like, "We did it." The whole family did it. So, finding ways to get your immediate allies on board I think is really big. This is also, I think, instrumental for me in my own mental health. My husband now knows better than I do when I'm starting to spiral. He can spot it days before it even blips on my radar. And I've gotten much better at... There were days where I would not know for weeks and I need...I'd eventually figure it out. But now, I can figure it out relatively quickly, but he still knows me even better because he has that objective perspective.

And so having someone who knows you really well, whether it's a spouse or a parent or a sibling or a friend, someone who's been on the journey with you can be incredibly helpful because they can serve as a barometer. And for me, one of the things that has been so challenging with bipolar is that it warps your sense of reality. I will occasionally turn to my husband and go, "Wait, am I hallucinating, or was that a really crappy thing for someone to say to me?" Sorry, I hope that's not bad. I'm allowed to say that, but...

Mary: Oh, no, we speak French here. All fine.

Gabriela: But, you know what I mean. Sometimes when you're having these mental health moments, I think you end up having... It can warp your sense of what normal looks like, and so then things that are normal, can seem abnormal. So, having someone who can be your reality check and say, "No. You're right to be upset. You're legit angry about this. There's no reason for that person to have said this to you." Or it's okay for you to feel sad, for you to feel grief because someone you cared about passed away. Sometimes are...especially with mood disorders, it can be really mind-rattling. So, yeah. For me, it's really about the people around me. Getting the people around me on board, getting my parents to understand what bipolar is about, having my siblings understand it, and then just being open about it and honest.

And like when things are lousy, I am very open about it because I think the more we hide mental illness, the more power it gets. The way we're gonna dismantle these stigmas is by sharing our stories, by being honest and saying, "I'm having a really bad day today." And don't just say, "Hey, I'm fine. How are you?" Like, "Yeah. I'm lousy. Things really suck today. But you know what, it'll get better." It's important to have these open conversations. Otherwise, we just all play the hiding game and then the illness wins.

Mary: I think that it gets better. We've heard it said in different contexts. We say it to young people who are struggling with their sexuality, but I think that's such an important piece of it because if somebody is in crisis and they don't necessarily have the framework for having conquered a few crises already, hearing that people are struggling, but then also hearing that tomorrow is another day, it can be really, really powerful. I think that's an unexpected upshot of this honesty.

Gabriela: Yeah. It's funny I started sharing about bipolar really openly in 2016. And I remember... It still happens from time to time now, when I'll share it with someone who didn't know my story and it's like this light turns on in their eyes. And then they'll say something like, "My niece or my son or my best friend's kid or my best friend or whoever has bipolar, and I thought it was a death sentence. I thought it was the end of their life." So, there is this element of...a lot of times when some...especially if it's someone young who's struggling with something like this. And bipolar is not a joke, I'm not gonna lie. It is a lousy, lousy mental illness. It sucks, but it's not the end of life as you know it. It does mean making adjustments, but the same is true whether you have bipolar or Type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure. There are any number of medical scenarios where you have to make adjustments based on the diagnosis. And it's certainly not something that is the end of your life as you know it. I am proof that it is not the end, it's the beginning. It can be the beginning.

Mary: Well, it led you to make changes that I think, holistically, you had been climbing one specific ladder. But look at everything that you've built as a result of a pivot, and you say that you are much healthier for it, which is a huge win.

Gabriela: And I'm happier. I now look back on the career path that I was going down and I would have hated that life. I do not play well with others, I do not do well in scenarios where someone else is in charge. There is no way. Until I got to that CEO office, I was gonna be miserable. And even then, I'd probably be miserable once I got there because I'd been miserable for so long. Looking back, that is so the wrong path for me. And yet, I would never have thought to course-correct if it hadn't been for the bipolar. So, while I will not lie, it is a horrible mental illness. There's stuff about it that I hate, but I'm also grateful for it because, without it, I never would have had to make a choice that has now turned out to be so much better for me.

Mary: I think that's a really beautiful thing to wrap up our conversation on, which is we... As human animals, we sometimes think we know what's best for us, but maybe not always. And so having that self-awareness, that personal community around us that knows us, warts and all, and being able to give ourselves a little bit of grace, even if it does come down to a really tough decision or something that feels impossible. I think all of these things are hidden additional ingredients, secret ingredients, in the whole recipe of what makes for a thriving writer.

Gabriela: Yeah. And here's the thing, all of this stuff also becomes fodder for storytelling. My friends tell me, at some point, I'm gonna have to write up some of the stuff that I've lived through because let me tell you, there are stories I could tell. You never know, the very struggle, the thing that you're going through, could actually end up being the nugget for a story that really...it becomes the story of your heart. So, if anything, as writers, we should be taking notes during these hard moments.

Mary: Surreptitiously, under the covers, on paper, if we're Gabriela.

Gabriela: Exactly. Exactly.

Mary: Well, I love, having had a piece of your professional wisdom, but also your heart today. As cheesy as that sounds, I think that these are the lights that we need to shine into some of these dark corners. Because so many people have issues that they're dealing with. That's what it means to be human. And you're right to capture some of those experiences, to turn them into art, to turn them into creative output. That's really at the crux of what it means to be a writer.

Gabriela: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I will say to all the folks listening, share your stories to the best that you are able to do so and that you can, because I know it can be hard to share the hard stuff. And I've been there, there were decades that I did not share my story before I was able to do it. So, don't beat yourself up if you don't feel like you're ready yet. But once you are ready, it's not a shame. It is a gift that we are giving to the world because the more stories we share, the more the stigma loses its power. And so, if we all start sharing our stories, there will be no mental health stigma anymore. So, that is my vision. That is my hope, is that someday it'll become as run of the mill as a cold and we can just say, "Oh, yeah. I'm just having a bipolar day today." And it'll be like, "Yeah. I have the flu."

Mary: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Gabriela Pereira of DIY MFA. And this has been the "Good Story Podcast."

Gabriela: Thanks so much for having me.

Mary: Here is to a good story.

Thank you so much for listening. This has been the "Good Story Podcast" with your host, Mary Kole. I wanna give a huge shout-out to everyone at the "Good Story Company." You can find us online at goodstorycompany.com. The team is Amy Holland, Amy Wilson, Jenna Van Rooy, Kate Elsinger, Kathy Martinolich, Kristen Overman, Michal Leah, Rhiannon Richardson, and Steve Reiss. Also, a shout out to our Patreon supporters and to everyone listening out there. Here is to a good story.

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