Tune in for a chat with Mary Kole's long-time friend in the children's publishing space, YA Author J.C. Geiger. He tells all about how he made an epic mixtape with rare and previously unreleased songs (and met his rock 'n' roll heroes in the process), and talks writing young adult characters, the future of post-pandemic fiction, and—of course—the power of music.

Ready to take your writing to the next level? Get even more of the Good Story Company resources you love, plus videos, workshops, handouts, and content you can’t get anywhere else.

Mary: Hello, this is Mary Kole and the Good Story Podcast, helping writers craft a good story. With me, you will hear from thought leaders related to writing, and sometimes not, about topics important to writers of all categories and ability levels. Here is to telling a good story.

Hello, everybody, welcome to the Good Story Podcast." My name is Mary Kole, and with me, I have the author J. C. Geiger. Welcome.

J. C.: Thank you. It's great to be here.

Mary: Why don't you introduce yourself?

J. C.: Okay, I'll do it. So, I'm J. C. Geiger. As Mary pointed out, I have written two YA books. The first one, Wildman, came out in 2017, basically about a valedictorian who gets stranded for a week in, kind of, a creepy dive bar...

Mary: Love it.

J. C.: ...motel and how it changes his life that week of time. And then the second book, The Great Big One, just came out about six months ago and is basically about the power of music specifically and, kind of, finding your people in the world as a way to avoid the fear and dread of whatever the current apocalyptic situation is. So, yeah, and also I'm a GrandSlam storytelling champion with the Moth, and I just re-learned how to rollerblade. So, that's another skill, Mary.

Mary: Well, now I know we won't be talking about writing, publishing, marketing, or collaborating, which were our topics for today because I am only interested... So, here's the thing. J. C. and I go way back, way, way back about a decade. We are...I don't want to say besties. I don't want to bandy that term about, but we have a history of tomfoolery in the children's publishing space, some conference shenanigans, Pacific Northwest. We go way back. So, it is just a pleasure to have you on to chat about all this stuff, mostly the rollerblading.

J. C.: Oh, yeah, we can go deep on that. It's at the top of mind of so many people listening. They just cannot wait.

Mary: Yeah, that's what I hear. It's due for a resurgence, and I think you are the poster child.

J. C.: I cannot wait. Yes, we could talk marketing and rollerblading. I'm totally into it.

Mary: Marketing while rollerblading I think is going to be a new TikTok trend. Anyway, okay, so enough of that. One thing that I really have been thinking about, and this is not something that I talked about talking about. So this is going to be a complete curveball but I think it fits in really nicely with "The Great Big One," the book you released in the middle of 2021.

So one thing I talk about a lot and think about a lot is, kind of, given everything that we've been through as a planet and a human species in the last two years, the pandemic, all of these, kind of, changes, I think anxiety about some of this stuff and uncertainty. They're, kind of, top of mind, and one of the things that I ask myself a lot is, what does post-pandemic fiction look like? What does the teen experience, as a result of these last two years, how does that influence? You know, like, people have gone through this, like, huge event, and it has changed a lot of things for a lot of people. And it sounds like "The Great Big One" is, in part, an exploration of, kind of, this doom and gloom and how do we deal with it.

J. C.: Yeah, it's really interesting because I started writing this book actually...it will be three years ago now, so definitely well before the pandemic. And, you know, it was mostly based on this constant fear of the subduction zone earthquake, which is, for those who don't know, basically Oregon, Washington, California are forecast to be...

Mary: Or poised.

J. C.: ...horrifically obliterated. Yeah, just we are perched on the edge of extinction out here, waiting for an earthquake that, through very sound science over the last, you know, several thousand years, shows, kind of, steady as a heartbeat there is a giant earthquake that happens in this zone of the world that will destroy a number of coastal communities out here. And I was spending a lot of time doing some work on the coast and just hearing these tsunami sirens, kind of, evacuation drills, seeing, you know, there's a radio station that I was working with a little bit that was there specifically to do disaster alerts.

And I was thinking like you're saying, "How does that constant fear shape the psychological landscape of a young person, you know, and anybody?" But I was thinking about...especially teenagers. I mean, me as a teenager, I was, like, constantly just, like, disaffected with where I grew up. I think that's, like, a fairly common thing.

Mary: Sure.

J. C.: But to take, like, standard issue, I'm disaffected with where I'm growing up along with the fact that your parents chose to locate to a place that, by all rational thinking, is going to be obliterated by a horrific disaster, it's like, "Come on!" Like, "Why do I have to be here?" So I was really thinking about, like, you know, before the pandemic happened, like, what is the force of all this fear and how does it shape the way that you see your chances in the world. And then with the pandemic coming on, so I was able to edit the book after the pandemic, kind of, hit its awful, horrific stride. And it was actually really interesting to see, kind of, the way that fear doesn't really change. Like, it wears different masks. You know, anxiety takes...it's kind of a shapeshifter.

And that's what I really came to think about is the pandemic is, kind of, the current shape that this fear and anxiety can take. And not to say it's not real. It's very much real but so is the threat of the Cascadia Subduction Zone earthquake. And so for a while, it was a nuclear attack from North Korea that people were really worried about on the West Coast.

Mary: But just hovering fear, wildfires, climate change, the political tearing asunder of democracy, everything, everything has the potential to, sort of, upend our experience, and what we have come to know, and what we maybe take for granted.

J. C.: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's interesting, you know, in the context of trying to make... I think it's really interesting for writers and artists at this point in time to be thinking about... I had so many friends, peers just struggling with, you know, "Does it even make sense to make art right now? Does it even make sense to create right now?" I mean, there's so many other things I should be doing or could be doing to help out, especially in the early phase of the pandemic. You know, it, kind of, felt like more of a war effort situation where people were wondering about the value of art. And, of course, I think it's incredibly...it's always incredibly important. And maybe during, you know, these periods of crises, more than ever if you can manage to do it.

Mary: If you can swing it.

J. C.: If you can swing it. I mean, if you're fortunate enough to be able to and the tragedy either hasn't happened yet or you've been able to duck parts of it and you could still produce something, I think that, to me, was, kind of, the guiding force behind getting this book. It was a very challenging book to write and to get it over the finished line was, kind of, constantly having to validate this still matters. This is still important. Even with everything else going on, you know, this is still, in many ways, the highest and best use of my time is to create this work and to believe that it still matters.

Mary: So, I'm thinking of my editorial clients, and some of them have absolutely flowered during the pandemic usually the ones who do not have small children at home, and some people have just frozen. And so I get this little slice, this microcosm of creative people. And it's so interesting to see how just the outside pressures have affected the creative life force that I get to interact with.

J. C.: Yeah. And I think it's interesting the way... You know, what I love about writing about young adults is that I feel like young adults are wrestling with so many of the things that I continue to wrestle with, try to wrestle with as an artist, which is, you know, "What is the most..." I mean, ultimately you're just, kind of, thinking about, like, "What's next? How do I move into the world? How do I be my truest self? How do I bring, you know, what I have to offer the world into existence?" And, like, constantly fighting against the expectations of parents, and of peers, and of teachers, and of society in general, and money, and all these other obstacles.

And so, for me, I always feel like I was working in tandem with my characters in this book of, like, propping each other up. I was like, "All right, Leo and Griff, you guys could do this. Don't give up," you know, and I'm like, "Okay, also, J. C., don't give up. Like, you could still write this book," because that's just a theme that, especially in the pandemic, I think is so important is how do you preserve that essential you and how do you still value what makes your heart sing in the face of so many challenges and so much, kind of, horror all around you.

Mary: Ugh, bumming me out now.

J. C.: I know, but it's like... I mean...

Mary: But that's the question. That's the world that we live in. That is the psychological effect of it. And so how do you grapple with that?

J. C.: Yeah. Yeah.

Mary: Well, so there's something really interesting that you mentioned because we're going to talk a little bit about releasing this book, kind of, during the pandemic, this book that indirectly addresses some of the core issues of the pandemic, anxieties of the pandemic. One thing you said to me in our little pre-recording banter was you felt a little bit isolated as a creator because there's something really interesting you were working right as the pandemic hit in a slightly adjacent area, a music festival.

J. C.: Yes. So, of all the amazing ideas...

Mary: Weren't you even going to open a restaurant, too?

J. C.: Yeah, I was going to do a restaurant. Actually part of my plan was to do more speaking at things like conferences, so I was, kind of, like hitting on all cylinders.

Mary: Ramp up your in-person events.

J. C.: Yeah, right, exactly. So, yeah, it was actually an amazing project that of course never happened because we were planning it right before the pandemic. But I was working on a music festival. It was called Vortex2020. The premise was basically to do a...it was a 50-year anniversary of another festival called the Vortex that happened in Oregon, which is fascinating. I have to tell you a little bit, because it's just so interesting is they essentially...there was a planned convention and speech happening in Portland that was expected to bring a lot of the conservative... So, Portland has always been, kind of, this bastion...not always but for a long time, this bastion of, like, liberal politics, and they were going to bring this Republican convention to Portland.

Mary: Oh.

J. C.: Yes, yes. So they were, of course, terrified the city was going to burn down when this happened. And so they were, "What do we do? Do we increase the police presence? Do we cancel this, you know, appearance, which is getting in the way of free speech?" And what they decided to do was they were going to have a music festival, and they were going to have a free state-sponsored music festival about 80 miles away from Portland they were going to use it to draw out all of the people—this is real—who would have been on the streets with the signs, protesting. So they're like, "We're just going to have the biggest party we can out in the woods," and it worked.

Mary: It worked?

J. C.: Miraculously. They pulled this thing off. There were no fatalities. Actually, some of the people who had come to the Republican convention decided it sounded like way more fun to go to Vortex. So, they had this giant, you know, week-long, I want to say, party festival in the woods and people just, kind of, brought their own food, and hung out, and made music. And then when it was all over, they wrapped up, and it was the 50-year anniversary of that.

Mary: Wow.

J. C.: Right. And, you know, it's hard now to even think about Portland and not see the images of all the protests that have been happening in the last few years, you know, and to see... But at the time, you know, we were anticipating that would happen. We were saying, "Well, we don't know what shape this will take, but we anticipate that 2020 will be similarly divisive politically," right?

Mary: Mm-hmm.

J. C.: So we were like, "Let's do a Vortex reunion." Now, it was going to be so great. And, you know, it was this amazing opportunity to collaborate. And the way we decided we would do it was we would collaborate with all these non-profit organizations. And the way that you would get in is by volunteering your time with some kind of environmentally focused non-profits. So doing beach cleanups, doing, you know, trail maintenance, doing all this work, and basically you'd get your wristband by actively participating in some, kind of, community-based environmental work.

Mary: Well, that's pretty rad.

J. C.: It was cool. And what it really allowed me to do is, you know, as a writer, you spend so much time in isolation, but I was collaborating with this incredible network of musicians, and artists, and entrepreneurs, and kind of just big thinkers who wanted to do something different and collaborate on this scale that was really fascinating and just enlivening to be able to work on, you know...you quickly learn you don't have the same autonomous power of creation that you have as a fiction author where you can just think something and make it happen. But it was wonderful.

And I think, you know, having that be it, kind of, the apex of just really...we just secured the venue and the promoter and all of these things.

Mary: Oh, my goodness.

J. C.: And then to have the pandemic just... Yeah.

Mary: Squashed it.

J. C.: Just squashed. And this kind of bewildered moment of, "Is this just over? Like, is all this just over now?" And, yeah, it was. It was just over.

Mary: It was just over, but you did end up taking a bit of a pivot with the music stuff.

J. C.: Mm-hmm. So, kind of, this whole collaborative spirit, which I think is just so important, I think, for all artists to have, it made me think, "Okay, I can't do an actual festival, but music..." I mean, you know, I was led into "The Great Big One" because I feel like music has transformative power and it has for me. I mean, you know, music, a band, or a song has inspired almost every writing project I've ever worked on. And so it really feeds me artistically and just on almost like a spiritual level. Music is really valuable to me.

And so I was thinking, "Well, what can I..." In this book, the main characters, they risk everything to essentially chase this phantom radio signal they hear one night at the radio station they're working on, and it's just like the band lights them up. And it's like one of those, you know, when you hear that song and you just stop everything and say, "Who is this? Like, I will go see them live. I need to get their album right now. Like, I will drop everything." I mean, Mary, I don't know if you ever had that for Ben Folds if you still have that.

Mary: Oh, stop. Don't talk about my boyfriend, Ben Folds.

J. C.: Yo, Mary is a huge Ben Folds fan. She might not tell you but she is a huge...

Mary: Oh, no. Everybody knows, everybody knows. And my musical tastes have not shifted beyond like 2001, so don't ask me what the cool bands are right now. I will not know.

J. C.: But do you like, remember? Did you have a moment like the first time you heard one of the songs? Like, do you remember or a particular song that just stopped you dead, you know? Did that happen?

Mary: You know, so there was this... New York Times, I think, published this article that said some of the stuff that you hear at this pivotal age, and I think it's like 13, that's the stuff that really sticks with you, and it just embeds in you in a different way. And, I mean, I can absolutely channel right back to that time when some of the artists that I loved like Green Day, Unashamed, just came into my life and...

J. C.: Green Day, by the way, Mary, a great band to rollerblade to. Like, if you have a boombox and you put on Dookie, it's amazing. You just ride around.

Mary: I'm trying to, like, force that moment, that moment of musical discovery onto my kids. And they're like, "What is this?" Like, my five-year-old is a huge fan of "We Built This City," so that was, kind of, the band for him. And I'm like, "Why don't we... Alexa play Dookie." You know, it hasn't worked yet, but I know exactly what you're talking about.

J. C.: I didn't mean to interrupt you if you have a story of when that carried you away. I mean, did you ever sneak off to like a concert? Did you out of a moment where you had to go see a band your parents said no, and you still went? Anything like that?

Mary: You know, I wish I was that cool, but my mom and I actually had a very trusting relationship. I was a very good teenager, and I got to go to any concert I wanted to because I was always home when I said I would be. But if we were going to make me seem cooler, then I would say, "Absolutely. I would rip off to San Francisco at a moment's notice to see The Frustrators." Yes, I am that cool as cool as everybody is imagining.

J. C.: For sure. I have no doubt. I mean, I'm surprised... I mean, it's lovely though, you had that freedom to be able to go see music, because it's kind of like this archetypical parent fight of like, "You can't go to the rock show," and it actually does happen, which is kind of funny, because it's such a stereotype. But it is a thing.

Mary: So you are driven by music. Your characters are driven by music. Your novels are imbued with music, and sound, and connection. And so you decided as a...well, let's not call it a launch strategy because the book is already out and there's a project you're doing now in support of it, but you decided what?

J. C.: I decided that, if my characters were going to do everything they could to find this band that they most loved, that I could do that. I should also do that. I should be chasing the bands that I love. And I was like, "Well, what does that even mean right now?" Like, no bands are even playing music right now. And then it kind of hit me.

Mary: They're sitting around waiting for your email.

J. C.: Yeah. Right, right. Exactly. That was the hope. That was the self-important, idealistic hope was that these bands just had nothing to do right now.

Mary: But I mean... So what's the project and what ended up happening?

J. C.: So what ended up happening is I decided I wanted to make a mixtape. And at first, the idea was just like it was just something to do... It didn't actually...first, Mary, it didn't even involve the bands themselves. I was like, "I'm just going to make a mixtape for my friends and the people who care about this book," because the book is centered around kind of one recording they get of this band and they get it on a cassette tape. And I was like, "I would love to make a cool soundtrack cassette tape."

Actually, I mean, I'm going to tell you this, but like the first thing I did was I made it for my editor at the time who was Rotem Moscovich. And I was like, "Okay, Rotem, I'm going to be in New York, but I'm not going to tell you exactly what and I want you to check your mailbox." And I orchestrated this whole crazy thing where Rotem got a mixtape delivered to her by courier, which you can't do in Eugene, Oregon but you can do in New York, which is really cool.

Mary: Yes, amazing.

J. C.: And so she got this delivered mixtape, and the mixtape had instructions on it embedded in the tape for places to meet me or to find other things in town. And Rotem is such a good sport. She's like, "I am so into this and I will totally take my afternoon and meet you." And then I got to meet Rotem at this really cool place called The Lighthouse, and then we ended up going to see one of my favorite bands, The Collection, play a concert.

Mary: What?

J. C.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I orchestrated this whole thing and I was like, "Well, that was just a gift for Rotem," because you know when I'm writing, I'm writing a book really for one person, you know? I sometimes know who that person is. Sometimes I don't. But the quality of gift for me is not dependent on how many people are going to see it. I'm just like, "I want to do something really cool for Rotem because she's an awesome editor and this would be fun."

And then I started thinking, I was like, "Well, that was really fun for Rotem, but what if I made a mixtape that, you know, I could just share with my friends? It would be like a soundtrack for the book." And then I kept thinking and I was like, "Or, I could make a mixtape that simulated surfing a radio station and, kind of, finding these bands." And then I was like, "Or, I could..." This is what happens when you're in a room by yourself and you have a lot of creative energy. You're going, "Wait. No, no. Bigger, bigger." What if I embedded clues in the tape that led to hidden treasures that I would stash across the country? So, in the same way, the characters have to chase, you know, this band. People would have to chase down these crazy treasures that I would hide.

And then the big idea happened and I was like...

Mary: That wasn't the big idea?

J. C.: No. The big idea was what if, instead of me just making a mixtape for my friends, I actually reached out to my favorite bands and asked them to provide unreleased, new, crazy music that maybe they've got sitting around, maybe they haven't released or found a home for yet.

Mary: Oh, my goodness.

J. C.: And put that on this tape with the clues.

Mary: With the treasure.

J. C.: With the treasures. And then made this epic mixtape that was only ever existing in analog form, and that there were only so many of them. And the clues would be challenging enough that I wouldn't know if they would all get found or not, because it's not fun if it's too easy. And so...

Mary: I disagree with you there.

J. C.: And so I was like... So then it just kind of started. And so I wrote... I was like, "This is crazy." I don't know these bands are going to pay attention to me. Like, it's one thing to, like, just make a mixtape with your favorite bands and then it's another thing to get permission from bands and new songs to use your music. So the first one I reached out to was there's this artist, David Lowery, who I love, who is the founding member of Camper Van Beethoven, and then the band Cracker. And he sent a bunch of solo stuff.

And when I was in seventh grade... This will probably surprise you. Seventh grade, by the way, which was the last time I could effectively rollerblade, was in seventh grade. I was watching MTV's "The Real World" and there was a guitar riff that came on during one of the transition segments like in the subway or something. And it was this guitar riff that was magic. It lit me up. I literally jumped to my feet. I was like, "What is this song?" And I was in that age. I was, like, 13. I was like, "What is this song? Like, oh, my God, this song is going to change my life." It was a 20-second clip of this song, and then it was gone.

Mary: And you couldn't Shazam it.

J. C.: There's no Shazam. For all you young folks out there...

Mary: All the youths.

J. C.: All the youths, all of today's youths, there was no Shazam. There was like barely internet. There was like dial-up.

Mary: So you had to open a phone book and call somebody on a rotary telephone.

J. C.: Right. And what am I going to do—call MTV? I'm like, "How do I..."

Mary: Hello, Carson Daly.

J. C.: Hello, is someone there from Headbangers Ball? Could I speak with them, please? I was like, "What do I even do?" And then I went to the TV guide.

Mary: Oh, my goodness.

J. C.: All the artifacts. And I found out they were rerunning that episode of "The Real World" the next day. So I got my father's Dictaphone. Mary, can you do a glossary of terms for people who are under 40 to accompany this podcast? Because they're not going to know.

Mary: No, all of this is just, oh, ancient history, rollerblades and mixtapes and Dictaphones.

J. C.: It's all coming back. So I recorded this riff, and I went to... Get ready for another one. I went to Musicland at the mall. And I was like, "Is there anybody here who really knows music?" And there was some dude literally out on a smoke break in the parking lot, and they pulled the guy in, and he looked like someone who I now would see in Eugene, Oregon where I live now. And he came in and he's like, "What is it?" And I played it for him and he was like, "Well, it's either Motörhead or Cracker." And then he went and he got the two shrink-wrapped CDs, and he's like, "All right, which one do you want to buy?" And I was like, "I don't know. Which one do you think he is?" He's like, "I don't know, man. I got it narrowed down to two." But you had to buy it. You couldn't look it up. You had to spend your money.

Mary: You couldn't play the little 30-second teaser in your iTunes or Spotify or whatever.

J. C.: Right, you couldn't do it. Yeah. So I was, "Okay, I'm going with Cracker." It was yellow. It had this can of sardines being opened on the front of it. It just was a very bizarre cover. And I was like, "That kind of appeals to me." So the people gathered around, and he put it in the changer and hit play. And it was miraculous because the first track and the first riff is that song.

Mary: No.

J. C.: So it's called "What The World Needs Now." And it's just like this driving wild guitar riff. And I was like, "It's the song!" And everyone cheered at Musicland then they all, kind of, hung their heads and just went about their business. But for five seconds, it was like the most epic...

Mary: You're on top of the world.

J. C.: I was on top of the world. And so I was like, "I'm going to reach out to David Lowery first because that was the first person who made me go out and chase music." And so I sent him an email that included the entire story that I just told you and sent it to them. And the next day, he wrote back and said, "Yeah, you could totally use a song." And I was like, "Oh, my God, I ran outside." I was twirling like The Sound of Music. It was amazing. I was just so thrilled. I could not believe that he actually emailed me back. I was like, "Oh, my God, David Lowery will be on a mixtape for my book." Like, how is this even real? I don't even understand what to do with this.

But it was so motivating. I was like, "Well, if David Lowery is willing to do it, then I'm going to reach out to these other bands." And really because of David Lowery because that gave me actual credibility with the other...because he's a known figure. So I reached out to The Hold Steady, who I love, and have flown across the country to see several times. And I was like, "Hey, I'm doing this mixtape. And by the way, David Lowery's involved." And the guy wrote back, he's like, "David Lowery's into this?"

Mary: What?

J. C.: Yeah, it was like so... I'm sure he was like, "Why? Like, why would David Lowery do this?" And so then it just went like that. I just started asking. I just wrote to musicians. I have some musicians that I have had had contact with before, like the band, the collection that I took Rotem to see. When they were on tour, they stayed at my house, and I put them up here for a few days.

Mary: What?

J. C.: Yeah, because bands on tour need a place to stay. So I was just like, "Yeah, you can stay at our house." And so some of the bands, I had a relationship with. Some of them, I just emailed, you know, cold. But it was so wild. I mean, and at the end of it, I mean, it took a long time, too, because there's licensing agreements. And so for some of the artists, they were just like, "Yeah, we own our own..." I had to learn so much about legal, you know...

Mary: Music publishing, yeah, it's a whole different world.

J. C.: And it's so complex. It's like there's publishing royalties and mechanical royalties and, you know, you can use... And then the fact that I was doing it on tape was confounding to anyone seriously trying to make money in music. They were like, "Why are you doing this? Doing this on tape?" But ultimately, I mean, the list of bands is amazing. I mean, it's like, you know, Eleni Mandell, and Fruit Bats, and Matt Hopper, and Pink Martini, and Rhiannon Giddens. I mean, Rhiannon Giddens. Like, I cannot even believe it.

And all of these songs are bands that I love, and they were also...like, Rhiannon Giddens was really important to one of the characters in the book, and the collection was really important to the characters in the book. So it was just kind of amazing way for me to almost like...I almost felt like I was partnering with my characters in the book, you know? Like, chasing these bands and getting all these songs. And so, yeah, essentially it has all finally come together. And in the process, I got to meet all of these heroes, you know?

Mary: That's amazing.

J. C.: And they were so excited because, I mean, the bands loved other bands. So, like, you know, Shook Twins, who I love, they're an amazing band they're the ones who I got to know about the collection through. They're like, "Whoa, like, you got Rhiannon Giddens?" And Fruit Bats were like, "Whoa, like David Lowery and The Hold Steady." And so the bands were excited. And some of the bands even came to me afterwards and were like, "Are these bands going to also hear this tape?" And I was like, "Yeah, of course." They're like, "Oh, we might want to send a different song." And it was really funny.

This is now, you know, "Our peers are going to hear this." But it was also just a way to make the book...to make it bigger, to make it more of a collaborative artistic experience. And the tape itself is it didn't feel like this cheap, kind of... Like, I have no... Mary, I mean, if people want to learn about marketing, it's like I cannot say how effective this is in terms of from a marketing perspective. I mean, time will tell, but writing for me, I come at it from a place of love and excitement and fear. Like, can I actually do this? Like, is this going to work or is this going to be like a total failure? And that is when I know it's a good idea to try to write about. And for this project, I was like, "It's worth doing, because it's scary in a good way." It feels bigger than I'm capable of. And that's...you know?

And somehow all those crazy threads I threw out like the treasure hunt, the clues, you know, the radio, waves that my son and I actually over the last period of the pandemic and before, we went to the beaches of Oregon in the tsunami, you know, warning zone and just collected...I call it harvesting songs and harvesting radio. And we would go down there with little Walkmans with tapes and just record the static, and the surf, and all the crazy transmissions that were happening on the coast. And those are all embedded in the tape. And the tape, you know, the final audio experience, which I've literally just finished is this, kind of...it creates this illusion of being on a highway late at night, surfing the radio, and stumbling upon these songs that are mind blowing. Like, the music is amazing from these artists, but there's not a track list. Like, I'm not giving out a track list. Some of the songs...

Mary: What?

J. C.: Yep. No, no, no. It defeats the purpose. Like, I mean maybe eventually, but, no, because I want it to be an experience that you're having that moment of discovering something new and something exciting. And if you're like just waiting for that Pink Martini track, you're like, "Okay, that's track 5. I'm waiting for it." That's not as fun. It's just like, you know, not knowing.

Mary: So you're, sort of, breaking down this instant gratification experience and doing this analog journey of sound and an actual journey. So, where does the scavenger hunt come in and do you now go to all the places in your clues and hide things for people like geocaching or are you getting people all over the country to, sort of, collaborate with you?

J. C.: So that was the other cool thing is when the tape first came out and actually it's still the case, that it's specifically with independent bookstores. So the tape functioned in a marketing way. It was like, "If you order a copy of 'The Great Big One' from an independent bookstore, then you can get a free tape," and I'm actually mailing the tapes to everyone. Some will be kept at independent bookstores and some are just getting mailed to individuals. But, yeah, essentially there's 10 treasures, and the treasurers are...each of them is unique. It's not like 10 of the same thing. And it's cool stuff. It's like open-ended concert tickets to whatever one of, you know, x bands show that you want to go to or backstage passes. There's this, kind of, custom jewelry that I'm working on. At this point, we have about half of them done that are pieces that will be in these packages. There's some original manuscript pages. Like, they're really cool treasures, and each of them is being kept at an independent bookstore. And so basically there's 10 independent bookstores and scattered throughout the country. And you can't call there. You actually have to show up to get it.

Mary: I love it. So, marketing. Marketing is hated universally by everybody except for, you know, digital marketing people.

J. C.: Is it really? It's not just me and other writers. Like, everyone kind of hates it?

Mary: So my domain is writers, but I think just a lot of artists have a love/hate relationship with marketing. You have to do it. And now more often than not, it comes in the query letter even like, "What's your platform? And what's your reach? And basically, how can you use your network to sell, you know, move copies?" And you did acknowledge a little bit earlier, you know, "I don't know how much this will actually move the needle," right, this project that has become, sort of, much bigger than just book sales. Though book sales would be nice, go buy J. C.'s book.

J. C.: Thanks, Mary.

Mary: But it's like... One thing that I really struggle with... So, I have a social media presence, and I have a marketing team within Good Story Company, and all of the content that we create is so consumable. You know, we were just kind of hashing this out the other day, and it's like, "Oh, it takes maybe 30 minutes to create a really engaging Instagram post." And then it lasts two seconds on the feed, and you're just like a blip. You're a blip in someone's day. And it doesn't, you know... Like, you're on this treadmill of creating content and creating content. And then I think something about that in people like you rebels and is like, "No, I want to make something of substance." You know, this is that artistic urge to create an experience, a journey. So you have to show up, you have to participate. You can't just download. You can't skip ahead on the track list. You know, it's not just two seconds on a feed. It's something real where you're having a real moment with your audience. You're having a real connection. You're giving them a real experience, a ticket to a concert rather than like, "Here's an MP3 downloader. Here's a free PDF, or here's a lead magnet, or all this..."

So. I don't think every writer listening will be able to, sort of, capture your incredible energy and charisma in doing all of this, you know? But it is kind of a very individual human thing that you're doing. And so it makes perfect sense that it's on a mixtape, that it's using some of this low-fi technology to, sort of, connect the reader to the spirit of your book and the spirit of your intentions as a creator.

J. C.: Yeah. To me, I always come back to why am I doing this. Like, why am I a writer? Like, what is the point of this life, of an artistic life? I mean, it can't be to make money. It's such a bad idea to get into...

Mary: LOL.

J. C.: I mean, right? I mean, not to say that you can't, and that you shouldn't ever think about that. Obviously, we all have to think about that.

Mary: We have to exist. We have to survive. It is a business. The big publishers are treating it as a business, and the book is a product. I mean, we can't...right, we can't deny that but...

J. C.: But at the same time, I think it's really important to maintain clarity about why did you get into this in the first place. I see a book almost as an...it's an opportunity...like, releasing a book is a rare opportunity, and it's a privilege to be able to do it in whatever way that you do it, in whatever way that your book, whether it's traditional published or it's self-published, however your book is in the world, what it is to me is it's like this catalytic moment and you can choose what you do with it. So, you know, this disposable content you're talking about, that makes me feel dead inside.

Mary: Me too.

J. C.: So I can't...

Mary: But we all need to market writers.

J. C.: It is. It's important. But I think the reason is I have huge problems with social media and what it's doing to the minds and lives of everyone in this country, everyone in the world, specifically young people. And, you know, if I'm writing books for young people and the books are all about following your own spirit, and building authentic relationships with people, and then I go on a platform that is kind of sneaking around the fact that it's making people hate their bodies...

Mary: Miserable.

J. C.: ...and feel like their lives are, you know... Yeah. Like, it feels like more discordant than I want it to. I'm not saying I never post on Facebook. I'm not saying I don't post on it because I do. But to me, it's like, what brings me to life about writing a book is like how can I create something that lasts, something of beauty, and something that's a collaboration with whoever's reading it. Like, I'm not writing books just to write them and put them in a drawer. Like, I want to take a reader on a journey. I think it is a one-on-one journey, right? Like, someone reading your book, if they're having like a one-on-one relationship with your thoughts as they're reading this book. And so it is kind of this intimate connection.

And for me, you know, when I think about writing, I try to think, how do I make this bigger than just me? How do I make it a relationship with the reader? And when I'm creating these experiences like this mixtape, it's like that question. And I think this is maybe the most helpful thing I can say about marketing is like, how can you make it more about you? How can you make it about either a project that you believe in or a community that you want to hold up? I mean, that's the same reason a lot of writers say they prefer to do events with other writers because then they can get on social media and be like, "Hey, it's not just me. It's this other group." And the way that the Vortex music festival was about like supporting nonprofits and doing this good thing and also about doing a really fun thing.

So I feel like this mixtape for me was a chance to... You know, I want to go to something M.T. Anderson said to me one time, which is...

Mary: He is a fountain of wisdom.

J. C.: He is. And he said, "If you write a book and the one weird kid, or cool kid, whoever kid loves that book, like the one in that high school, and that's true for every high school in the United States, you've just written a bestseller." And I'm like, "That's a super interesting way to think about marketing." And he was saying it in service to artistic integrity but also to that, "Well, the book's got to be well-liked. It's got to do well." It's like, well, I think it has to do really well with the people who are into it.

And so if I can make this tape, this artifact that is not disposable because that's not why I'm here. I'm not here to create disposable content, you know? And, you know, like George Saunders said, which I really love, is he said... Someone was like, "Why don't you do social media?" and he said, "I was confronted with the choice of whether to get paid very little to write quickly or to get paid a lot to write slowly and I chose the latter." And I was like, "That's so brilliant."

Mary: Sounds about right.

J. C.: And so for the mixtape, for me, it's like I want to create an artifact that endures. And I can't say, yeah, will it do that sugar spike of the viral thing where everyone cares about it for however many minutes? They care about it, and then it goes away. I mean, that would be great. I would love that, but it's not actually necessary because even novels don't always work that way. I mean, you know, reading a book isn't watching like a 10-second clip. It's a long-involved experience. And this tape, I think, for the people who love it, I think they'll love it. And I've put a lot of thought and care into it.

And if nothing else, Mary, if nothing else, you know, I made the first mixtape that took me probably like, you know, seven or eight hours. I made it for one person. I made it for Rotem. You know, I made it for my editor. And so this tape took many, many, many more hours than that, but if it really truly connects with a few people, including the musicians... I get to make something and send it to my heroes. I get to send to my heroes, you know, a copy of this tape, so that's exciting.

Mary: And they're eagerly anticipating it and looking forward to it. And they see it as a collaboration. Like you said, they're, sort of, looking at who else is there, and their peers, and showcasing their, you know, music to other people in their community. And you probably have a lineup all nailed down for Vortex festival whenever you can put it on.

J. C.: That's right, 2027. Yeah, mark your calendars, everybody.

Mary: 2083.

J. C.: Yeah, exactly. Oh, my gosh.

Mary: I mean, I think about this in terms of Netflix. The goal now seems to be to create this very bingeable experience and then it's over in eight hours or however long it takes to watch a limited series. And Netflix is like, "We paid $100 million and spent 6 months making this so you could binge it in a weekend with your friends and talk about it for 15 minutes," and it just feels like such a... Like, that spike-driven viral pressure is so antithetical in some ways to the slow... You know, we had that Slow Food movement, Slow Book movement. You could be, sort of, the face of the Slow Book movement, you and George Saunders.

J. C.: Yeah. I mean, you know, if I can collaborate with George on a project, Mary, you know...

Mary: Collab, George.

J. C.: ...I'll take that excuse. I'll just give him a call.

Mary: DM him on Insta for a collab. Ugh. I hear you. Things were simpler in the '90s, were they not? I think that's just kind of the takeaway from this conversation.

J. C.: I think what's kind of funny is I think... Do you know that tapes actually are coming...? Do you know that the cassette tapes are coming back?

Mary: Are you the only one saying that or are people actually...?

J. C.: If you actually look up... NPR just ran a story on it last week that the National Audio Company, which actually they're producing this tape for me. So once I have the full file they're producing, when I called them to ask if we could work together, they're like, "Yeah, we just re-released Nirvana's Nevermind and Pearl Jam's Ten on cassette tape," and I was like, "Will you please work with me?"

Mary: Oh, my goodness. They dusted off their equipment and...

J. C.: Yeah. And actually the growth of tapes has actually been growing. And I feel like it's doubled in the last two years. I don't want to misquote that, but it's growing quite a lot. And there has to be a reason for that, right? I mean, I can't say I know exactly what that is, whether it's the slow experience, whether it's... I mean, what I hear is it's because it's something you can hold, it's something that, kind of, subverts the ability to just skip through it quickly. You, kind of, you know, go through the whole experience.

I mean, we just went on a road trip. This is so funny, but we just went on this road trip and we had this old... I mean, I still drive the '93 Buick Century from the Wildman roadtrip experience. That sucker still runs. I still drive it. It has a tape deck in it, which the furthest upgrade I have is the tape that goes in and has a little cable through it, right? So, like, that's my technology upgrade, you know, which you could plug into your phone, but also...

Mary: No, they took away the audio jack.

J. C.: ...a Discman.

Mary: No, you can't.

J. C.: My phone, you can't. Oh, I was so mad when they took away the audio jack. I was like Apple, never again. Never again, Apple. But, yeah, it was so funny because we were going on this road trip. And then we also have a van, which is like a 2001 that has a CD player, right? And we're like, "Okay, we're going on a road trip." And so like, we get our CDs, our CD books, and our tapes, and all this stuff. And then we ended up, which we knew all along, we were going to rent a vehicle to do this trip because we have ancient vehicles that we're driving all the way to Illinois from Oregon.

Mary: Oh, wow.

J. C.: So we rent this car and we show up with our books of CDs, you know, and our tape, and we're like, "Oh, my God, there's no player," because this car wasn't made in the '90s. And then what a pain. It was like, "Okay. Oh, the Bluetooth, which only works sometimes. And it doesn't really connect." Like, "Oh, we borrowed this book but it's on Audible, so we can't use it until... or Libby in the library, but we can't check it out yet because it's already..." It was like so much more complicated than the book of CDs. I was like, "I miss the book of CDs. It was so easy. It was just like..."

Mary: Simpler times.

J. C.: Anyway, it's so funny.

Mary: Well, I do think something about the last two years... I was just talking to a client about this directly before this. It was just, you know, life has changed so much in the day-to-day for a lot of people, but the pace hasn't. And so that's a real friction point where I think everything is saying, you know, slow down. Maybe take a moment for yourself. Take a mental health break. But companies expect the same level of productivity even though now people are also homeschooling their kids on Zoom and, you know, facilitating all of that. And it's just the pressures haven't eased and there's the consumer pressure, right? Every second or third thing in your Instagram feed wants you to buy some stuff. And it's just none of the pressures of the world have eased, but I think people have been like, "Wait a minute. I just want to stare at the wall and listen to my mixtape and go for a blade." What do you call a rollerblading outing? A glide. I'm going to go for a glide.

J. C.: Ready to come up with a term. It's like, yeah, I do feel like an inordinate amount... I call it a Eugene afternoon like an inordinate amount of people in Oregon are just skating. Like, yesterday, I full-on brought my boombox with me just to keep it weird. I just had to do it. It was amazing. Like, that was a gift I got from Emily. She gave me a boombox that also has Bluetooth and also plugs into things, but it still plays tapes and gets a radio signal.

Mary: You must be really easy to shop for. Just like go to the broken down electronics shelf at Goodwill like the stuff nobody wants anymore.

J. C.: Spend five bucks.

Mary: Yes.

J. C.: I do want to ask you though about the slow experience. I mean, I could go into rollerblading. I could.

Mary: I'm cool.

J. C.: I want to ask like, where do you fall on that in terms of...? Do you feel like the highest and best use of a writer's time is doing that extra hour of deep thinking on the book or spending an hour crafting disposable social media content?

Mary: Shit. Shit. That is a really good question. So, I mean, from an industry perspective and we're, kind of, seeing kind of burnout, and people are overworked and underpaid, and everybody's sort of on this treadmill, but the treadmill says more, more, more. And we see agents looking at platform and we see everybody, sort of... We're counseling everybody like pick a social network. Yes, Twitter is toxic and it gives you anxiety, but that's, you know, all the publishing people hang out, and you need a presence, and you need, and you need, and you need.

I don't want to discount that. I don't want to say, you know, we can just live in the Pacific Northwest and in the bubble and pretend none of that exists. I mean, you're a published author. You're finding your own way to market. I do think it's important. I do think knowing what the market is doing, participating in any way that you can stomach is being looked at. I'm not going to live in this ideal world that you apparently live in, but especially when it comes to writing for young readers, the strongest marketing you can do, especially when you're getting started and you don't have much of an audience to speak of, is really the piece, the manuscript, the story, how deeply felt the characters are, your writing voice.

I mean, if you need to set up a quick and dirty Twitter profile, you should check that box but don't put that above your creative output. I do think that that artistic integrity, what only you can bring to the page, the weird ideas coming out of your weird brain, that is where you can shine. Any asshole can have an Instagram account. Like, I know plenty of dogs who have Instagram accounts, you know? Like, that's the low hanging fruit that you do it, you stomach your one network, you build your platform as much as you can, but if you had one beautiful hour a day that you can allocate along with all the other stuff that you're doing as a human, just trying to survive, I would do the dreamwork. I would do the creative work, the writing work, the research work, the staring at a wall work, the take yourself on an artist day to a museum work. Like, your unique identity as a writer, your filter through which human experience is shaped and sharpened into something, that's a story, that's the one thing that you have that you're bringing to the reader, to that one reader at that one high school repeated a thousand times, hopefully thousands of times.

But that's the thing that you really have to offer. And so for the people who don't naturally find themselves attracted to this disposable content treadmill that we're all kind of stumbling around on, that's fine. I mean, you may hear about it. You may hear that you need to grow your platform, but there's time for that. You're doing this mixtape effort after the release of the book, you know? I just think that the one irreplaceable thing is what you bring to the table creatively.

J. C.: I think that's beautiful. Yeah. I think that's great. No, I'm really glad that you gave me permission to keep living in my bubble at least a little bit, one foot in the bubble at least.

Mary: If the foot is wearing a rollerblade, then yes.

J. C.: Yeah. I think what you brought up raises a really important point that I wanted to mention about, you know, that this promotion is happening months after the book came out. And it was really interesting because I was, like, so nervous about like, "Oh, man, I can't get it done well in time for the launch," because I have to deal with all this legal stuff. And then I have to compose something that's beautiful in the position of a sound engineer, which I'm not. But I'm working with a team that is, and they've given me a lot of help.

And what was interesting was I heard from some marketing people, not specifically in book marketing, but they said, "Well, that's actually perfect." And I said, "Well, how is that perfect?" They said, "Well, because your book comes out and you have this big push to kind of get it out. And you've got your social media flares up, and everyone's excited, and bookstores are promoting, and you're getting tagged in Instagram. And then six months later, it's time for another beat. You know, it's time to give this book some more life." And they were like, "A book is a long-term sales proposition. It's not something you just do one big thing for, and then forget about."

And so that helped me a lot. And so I would say to anyone who's listening and worried about, "Oh, I got to get this done by this..." I actually think playing the long game can work, you know? And now I'm likely to get more publicity to cover it now, you know, six months later, because it's not the middle of summer. There's not a million things happening. And now the bands, I have more of a relationship with, and they're like, "Yeah, I will now share this. I couldn't share it in July, but I'll share it now." And so that's been kind of heartening.

And the other thing I wanted to throw out there for people who are kind of finding a way to market something but do it in a way that doesn't feel disposable is going back to that, making it bigger than you. And when "Wildman" came out in 2017, I decided to do this ill-advised, insane cross country road trip in my '93 Buick. That was my idea for the first book. And I had this idea that I'm going to drive 10 miles for every pre-order copy I sell, and I'm going to drive 10 miles for every $5 donation to the American Library Association.

Mary: Oh, my goodness.

J. C.: And my editorial team at Disney, they said, "You realize you might not even make it out of Oregon? Like, you do realize that, right?" And I was like, "I do but I have a plan."

Mary: Was that heartening to hear from your publishing team?

J. C.: It was hilarious. I was like laughing because, I mean, I was trying to be a writer for a long time. I mean, Mary, you know. You know, you rejected me a couple times. We're still friends.

Mary: Yup, no hard feelings.

J. C.: But, like, you know that I was on the road for a long time. And so, for me, like, I expected never to get published. So to me, it was like hilarious. I mean, rejection at that point in your life is just funny. I mean, it's not just funny, but it's not unexpected. You're like, "Oh, of course they think this is impossible," but once they came around to seeing how I planned to do it and how I planned to coordinate it, then they got super excited. And they said, "Actually, would you mind driving to New York through Texas?" And so they actually added miles. So I ended up having to drive, like, you know, I want to say 4,000 miles.

Mary: Wow. So that's kind of a classy problem to have, because that means that people donated, people bought, you got buy-in from your publisher. There was a lot of support around this project.

J. C.: There was a lot of support, and it also was that whole key of, "What's something that would be worth doing even if it wasn't a success?" And to me, it was worth doing. It was interesting. It was challenging. It allowed me to collaborate with a lot of interesting people, because I picked up librarians along the way and they would ride with me for little segments of the road trip. And I got to visit bookstores. And it coincided with getting to go to a major book event that was happening in... BookExpo was happening in New York the day that I arrived.

Mary: Oh, my goodness. That's perfect.

J. C.: And it worked. Like, I actually made it all the way and I think because...

Mary: I'm more surprised the Buick made it, I mean, to be honest with you.

J. C.: I know. That was the fear, that was the fear. The fear was actually there. Like, okay, he has the miles, but can the Buick actually make it into New York? And it was a big... I mean, the book was based on the same vehicle breaking down, so it wasn't a very heartening thing.

Mary: Oh, my gosh.

J. C.: But I think, you know, I share this story just to say, you know, it was also a very strange idea but it was enlivening and it was not that kind of cold, dispassionate feeling I get when I'm trying to be pithy or clever on a social media platform. I was like, "I'm going to create for myself a genuine problem to solve," which a book is. I mean, a poem is that. A book is that. A short story. I mean, you've created for yourself a problem to solve. And for me, thinking about marketing, thinking about getting the book out there, which I do care about, it's like, how can I create a problem that's interesting to solve, you know?

And then the American Library Association ended up sharing it on their platforms, and ABA, and Pacific Northwest Booksellers, and it got it some good attention, but I never knew that it would. I just knew that it was something that was interesting and worth doing, even if it meant a catastrophic failure like at the end of my own block where nobody cared, which is always possible with a book or with a project.

Mary: So, a couple of things, and I could talk to you forever. I mean, honestly, we spent some epic times together. You showed me around Portland and that was just amazing. I could talk to you forever, but a couple things to pick out here. So, one is that you had yourself a great time, and I think too many writers in all of this creation, they neglect the human animal that is sort of behind it.

So I think what you spotlight with that is that you had a great time. You did something you wanted to do. You brought readers along for the ride, but you kind of would have done it whether anybody was watching or not, and you enriched your own experience. And I think that's something people need a reminder to do. If you are going to write something, you better do some living too.

J. C.: Absolutely.

Mary: And then I do think the funniest thing is that I'm going to...this is a quote for the ages but that "writing is creating a problem for yourself to solve." I counsel a lot of writers, and a lot of my novelists are just gnashing their teeth and just, like, flopping around and being like, "Oh, it'll be an exquisite torture of writing." I'm like, "You're doing this to yourself. You know that, right?"

J. C.: Yeah, you signed up for this, right?

Mary: You signed up for this. Nobody told you to write a novel. Like, this is all coming from within your melon.

J. C.: Right, this entire writing career is an unforced error. Like, you didn't have to make it. You didn't have to do this.

Mary: But now you are. And how do you make it interesting, and lively, and just a fun project for yourself? I think you, sort of, embody that.

J. C.: Thanks, Mary. Yeah, I think the main thing is you have to... Yeah, you've got to keep loving it. I mean, I think that's the most important thing. So, I keep trying to ask myself, you know, how can I continue to love this and point myself in that direction of engagement and also a little bit of worry of, you know, "Can I actually pull this off?"

Mary: Love and fear. I mean, that's, sort of, the tenet that we started talking about at the top of the hour.

J. C.: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Mary: Well, let's bring it in for landing. Everybody, my dear friend, J. C. Geiger, just wild man. Thank you so much for bringing a fresh blast of Pacific Northwest air onto the podcast. Everybody check out the... Were you calling it The Big Mixtape project or...?

Mary: Yeah, The Great Big Mixtape. The accompanying book, "The Great Big One." J. C., thank you so much.

J. C.: Thank you, Mary.

Mary: This has been "The Good Story Podcast." I am Mary Kole, and here's to a good story.

Thank you so much for tuning into "The Good Story Podcast." My name is Mary Kole, and I want to extend my deepest gratitude to the Good Story Company team: Kristen Overman, Amy Wilson, Rhiannon Richardson, Joiya Morrison-Efemini, Kate London, Michal Leah, Jenna Van Roy, Kathy Martinolich, Len Cattan-Prugl, Rebecca Landesman, Steve Reiss, and Gigi Collins. Please check us out at goodstorycompany.com, and I would love it if you joined Good Story Learning, a monthly membership with new content added where you can learn everything you ever wanted to know and more about writing and publishing for writers of all categories and ability levels. Thanks again for listening. And here's to a good story.

This blog post contains affiliate links.