Episode 38: Katie Wolf, Editor and Writing Coach
Editor and writing coach Katie Wolf joins the pod for an inspiring conversation about getting started in publishing, work-life balance, and writing to market. She also discusses the importance of prioritizing mental health and why self-awareness is key in developing your writing craft.
Good Story Podcast Episode 38: Interview with Katie Wolf, Editor and Writing Coach
Mary: Hello, this is Mary Kole with "The Good Story Podcast," all about the writing life, the publishing life, and everything in between. I want to thank our Good Story Company team. You can learn more about us at goodstorycompany.com, and I am thrilled to bring you today's show. Here is to a good story.
Welcome to "The Good Story Podcast." My name is Mary Kole, and with me I have book editor, coach, general writer-helper person Katie Wolf, and I will let you explain yourself a little bit better than I just did hopefully. Sorry about that.
Katie: No, I love it. I love it. It kind of encompasses everything I do, so it's perfect. Well, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be talking with you.
Mary: My pleasure.
Katie: And, yeah, so first of all I'll talk about my writer side. I'm a writer who's written two books and published a few short stories and articles online. My first book is women's fiction, second is a psychological thriller. Neither are published yet. I'm working on it though. I have a fabulous...
Mary: Amazing.
Katie: ...fabulous literary agent, Mollie Glick at Creative Artists Agency.
Mary: Oh, you'll be just fine, I think.
Katie: So, the psychological thriller is currently on submission at the moment. So, fingers crossed. Yes.
Mary: Amazing.
Katie: And all the nerves and, you know, obsessively checking my email and all of that, so, yes, but it's exciting.
Mary: We will see you in Publishers Marketplace hopefully very soon.
Katie: Fingers crossed. Yes, I hope. I hope. So, yeah, that's my writer side. And then I also have a freelance editing business. I'm a full-time book editor and coach. And I should just insert a disclaimer here that I am almost seven months pregnant, and I get out of breath very easily, so if you hear me, kind of, feeling like I'm...
Mary: No, congratulations. Is this your first?
Katie: Thank you. It is, yes.
Mary: Oh, my goodness. I'm not going to say all the things that people say. I have three kids.
Katie: So, you know the struggle of pregnancy and catching your breath and all of that.
Mary: That wasn't my particular foible in pregnancy. My pelvis just kind of fell apart. But, yeah, it is a gnarly physical ride. It is all-encompassing. So, good for you for even being somewhat vertical, I would say. You did it.
Katie: It's honestly having the job that I have. Like, I'm so grateful to get to have a flexible schedule and to arrange my working hours the way that I want so that I can be doing book editing in the morning and coaching, which is when I feel most energetic and feel like...
Mary: Yes.
Katie: And then I can rest in the afternoon. I can do more in the evening if I need to. Working for myself has just been the biggest blessing with this pregnancy because, yeah, I can't imagine... I don't know how people do it, who have to be on their feet all day.
Mary: Physical jobs.
Katie: Working physical jobs.
Mary: On their feet. My husband's a chef, and he's on his feet all day. And I'm in your boat. I've been working from home and for myself ever since I've had a career, and it is amazing, but the flip side of that is, when said child calls in sick from school or whatever, that flexibility is a double-edged sword. So, I'm warning you right now, have some conversations with your partner if you have a partner, and just be like, "Hey, just because I'm available doesn't mean I'm available."
Katie: Yeah. No, that's something that we're navigating now is like... We have a few months before we start daycare, and so it's thinking about, "Okay, how are we going to make this work? Both of us work from home."
Mary: Oh, my goodness. Okay.
Katie: So, that helps in some respects, but, yeah, it's definitely a conversation, and then I'm sure we'll learn a lot as we go.
Mary: Well, you know, I think it's worth talking about the different... You also were going to, sort of, introduce your editing, and we sort of got off on a tangent. But I do think it's always worth talking about balancing your various hats. For example, your writer hat, and your editing and coaching hat, but also the life hat and the "I'm a serious literary person, dang it" hat that sometimes gets caught up in life upheaval. So, I think that's such a... I mean, I'm always talking to my clients about they're always writing in and they say, you know, "I'm so sorry, life got in the way. I had to move. I had to change jobs. Somebody got sick. I'm doing caretaking," you know, self-care, which is at the very bottom of the ladder for a lot of people, the last thing people think about.
But I think it's a very worthwhile thing to always be talking about, because we need to, sort of, refuel ourselves if we're going to be of service to others on the editorial side of things or if we are going to be creators ourselves on the writing side of things. So, I'm actually glad that we took a little detour here.
Katie: Yeah, I am as well. It's something that I think about a lot. And it's an ongoing act for me. I've been full-time in this editing and coaching thing for about a year and a half maybe.
Mary: Amazing.
Katie: And it took a while to figure out the flow and to figure out balance and to figure out even my working schedule like when I wanted to be working, how many clients to be taking on. So, I guess I can just kind of go into the business side of things a little bit now.
Mary: Please.
Katie: Yeah, so I work with mainly new writers. That's kind of who I seem to attract a lot, which I love. I absolutely love working with writers, who are working on their first book or who have written their first book, and fiction. So, I offer two different editing services: copy editing and a manuscript evaluation, which is kind of more on the developmental side. And then I also do coaching. I have, like, a six-month program where I work with people to write their book and support them in that process. And then I also do training. So, I'll do classes on characters, or dialogue, or editing your draft, things like that. And so, yeah.
So, I've been doing this for a number of years, but like I said, it's been about a year and a half of doing this full-time. And just for a little bit of my background, I was not one of those writers who's been writing since grade school.
Mary: That's okay.
Katie: I love to read. I was always a reader, and there was always a part of me that felt like I had a book in me that someday this is something I wanted to do. But it was just never something that I had the courage to explore, to be honest. And in college, you know, I got an English lit degree, went to grad school to be a librarian. I thought that was my career path.
Mary: Oh, library science.
Katie: Yes, yes. I got a master's in library and information science. and spent a couple of years... Well, I spent about a year in the academic library world working in college and then transitioned and worked in law libraries for about five years. And while I was working as a law librarian, I just kind of got to this point where I looked at my life, I looked at what I was doing, and decided that something didn't feel right. I just decided that, "You know what? I've had this idea in the back of my mind that I want to try writing for years. Like, it's now or never. I've got to do it. I was 30 at the time." I'm like, "All right, like, let's..."
Mary: Oh, no, an old maid. I just had a birthday, so I'm allowed to feel ancient for a second.
Katie: No, no. Not that that's old at all. It was more that, when I hit 30, I really started to take stock of my life. You know, my husband and I were about to get married, hadn't gotten married yet. And so it was like, "Okay, what is my purpose in this life? What am I passionate about? What do I want to try?" So, I started taking some writing classes, a lot of writing classes, did kind of like a really intense year or so where there's a... I was living in Nashville at the time. There's a great literary center there, so I was taking all these classes.
Mary: So, you did mostly kind of in-person classes at a local center. And did you concentrate on anything in particular? I know fiction has always been your wheelhouse. So, were you taking character classes or, like, whole novel classes? Because I think what's important to note here is you did get an English lit degree, but I don't know about you, I always hear from writers who are like, "Well, you know, I didn't go to school for this. Can I still do it?" And of course the answer is, yes, you can because writers, we take from everywhere. We're like little crows collecting things from all angles. You can train yourself by reading. You could train yourself by just sitting down and starting to write. There are resources everywhere, but I'm curious to see how you, kind of, cobbled together a writing training on your own outside of an academic setting.
Katie: That's a great question, and something that I really had to figure out as I was going. Initially, I just started taking any class that sounded interesting. I took a personal essay class that met over eight weeks, decided that wasn't quite right for me at least at that point in my life. I took a dialogue class. I took a short story class. I would go to this thing called draft chat, which is where you bring something that you were working on and get feedback. So, I got that exposure for the first time of...
Mary: So, a little workshop.
Katie: Yeah, reading other people's writing and having them read mine and give me feedback. I even took like kind of a branding or the author business kind of class just to think about what does this look like. I didn't know anything about publishing. I didn't know anything about... I had no idea that there was traditional versus indie and hybrid. None of that. So, yeah, I really just tried to take as many classes as I could, and follow what was interesting, and then decided... I did write a few short stories in the beginning but then decided to focus on a novel, and that was my first...yeah, that was my first kind of introduction to fiction and writing.
So, I actually got a different agent for that book, and it went on submission right unfortunately before COVID hits, 2019, early 2020, and we had an editor who was interested and she got laid off because of the pandemic. And so that book just kind of died on submission. So, that was really—.
Mary: Was it also women's fiction or literary fiction?
Katie: Yeah, that was...
Mary: Has that always been sort of your category?
Katie: That one was definitely women's fiction. And what's interesting is that my second book that I ended up writing is very different. It's much more of a thriller. I, sort of, had a... I took a number of months after that book didn't sell and really thought, "Okay, what do I want to write next? What's calling to me?" I had a lot more experience. You know, you learn how to write a book by writing a book, and I learned so much on that first process. And it felt like it was a good opportunity to just make sure that I was telling the stories that I wanted to tell and writing the books that I wanted to write.
So, that was when I decided that actually this story that I have in my head works more as a thriller than it does women's fiction. It's psychological. It still deals with a lot of women's relationships and dynamics and all of that, but there's...
Mary: And I think that's really the sweet spot in the market right now. I mean, you look at a lot of the... The thrillers would, sort of, be classified domestic thrillers, not domestic because it's women but domestic because they have to do with those relationships, those intimate relationships where they can...you know, the highs are high but the lows are devastatingly low. And I think that that is such a core part of the market right now. I mean, look at Colleen Hoover and basically all of these kind of intimate relationship. I mean, I'm just projecting based on the category that you're telling me about, but I just want to say that that is a huge area right now in adult fiction.
Katie: Yeah, that's exactly what I am fascinated by and what I want to explore. And it just was a matter of pivoting from, kind of, the topics and the way that I approach it and obviously raising the stakes and making things very suspenseful and wild in the second book. But, yeah, a lot of the same issues are there, and that's what I like to read. That's one of the genres that I read. I read a lot. But, yeah, so that was kind of the turning point for me after that first book didn't sell. And it was around that time that I started doing some freelance editing. I had always been editing for other people kind of like, "Hey, will you edit my med school application letter, or would you proofread this, or whatever?"
Mary: That's the thing that English majors provide in the family. We have a physician in our family, and so it's like, "Hey, I have a rash." And for English majors, it's like, "Here's a resume."
Katie: Same. That's so funny you say that. Yeah, my brother's a doctor, and I asked him at one point, I'm like, "Do you get sick of people just saying like, 'Hey, look at this'?"
Mary: Yeah, like pull their shirt up and be like, "Look at this gnarly thing."
Katie: What do you think, doc? But exactly, exactly. It's the same sort of thing with me having that background in English. So, I took a an editing class online just to see... I still wasn't fully even convinced that I wanted to really commit to this yet, but I thought, "Okay, I'm good at this. This is one of my skills from having this background in English and reading so much. And now knowing so much about writing myself, maybe this is something that I could do." So, I took a class, started out on Fiverr, just doing the occasional client, making no money but getting some experience and figuring it out.
And, yeah, then just kind of slowly worked my way up to taking my own clients, getting off of Fiverr, and then getting to the point, you know, last year where I felt like I was making enough and working with enough clients where I can do it full-time. Yeah, and then through that process ended up parting ways with that first agent amicably. Everything was fine, but we just weren't really a good fit anymore. Queried again and went through the process of revisions on my second book. So, there was a lot going on last year in terms of figuring out the business, writing again, revising my book. But, yeah, I'm excited for being on submission and hopefully we'll have good news soon.
Mary: So, we kind of skipped over this, like, miracle timing here. You took some classes. Were you still working at the law library at this point or you were just...?
Katie: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Still working full-time.
Mary: So, you were juggling some stuff, taking classes, doing the day job thing. And then you're like, "Oh, I just got an agent, and then I got another one." And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So, the timeline is like two or three years during which...you know, maybe longer because to me, COVID was, like, last year, but people now are like, "Well, Mary, it's been like four years."
Mary: I know. Time is a social construct. It has no meaning. but basically in the last three or four years, you have drafted three novel manuscripts, and they were at a level that multiple agents have been attracted, including at least one editor who, unfortunately, you know, the reality of publishing. It's not just pandemic. Every time the economy sneezes, publishing is like, "Oh, no, no. We are doing layoffs. We are not acquiring." Unfortunately, it is a very sort of... Oh, they'll pick any reason to say no. but that's not to discourage anyone, but that is to say, you know, it is not uncommon to part ways with an agent even amicably. It is not uncommon to have an editor leave, go on maternity leave, switch companies. It is not uncommon for an imprint to fold. At the time of this recording, we just heard that Inkyard Press was being absorbed into Harper Collins yesterday.
So, it's always going to be something, but you have batted... Okay, I'm not a sports metaphor person, so I don't know why I keep insisting on trying to make them, but you have a high batting average with relatively, kind of, few years. So, are you just preternaturally amazing and talented, which I'll accept that answer, that's totally fine. What do you think you're doing so right to, sort of, have put yourself on this path so robustly?
Katie: Well, I think it's a few things. And as much as I would like to claim that I'm some, like, you know, innately talented person, I don't think that's true at all. I mean, I had to learn the basics of storytelling, the basics of writing, just like anyone else. I remember I had this feeling early on that, oh, because I read so much, because I was such an avid reader and obsessed with books, that I would just know how to write a book, that it would just come to me so naturally. And maybe it's that way for some people, it was not that way for me.
My early stuff was just... I had such a sense of frustration that it wasn't matching up to what I wanted it to be in my head. So, I certainly started at zero. I mean, I really had to figure out how to navigate all of this, and write a story, and develop characters, and write dialogue and all of this. But I think, for me, what helped is, number one, just being such an avid reader, being aware of the kinds of books that were being written, being aware. Once I learned, once I took that first class, it was like, okay, I want to learn as much as possible about publishing, and what an agent is, and how books get acquired and all of that.
So, I think just gaining as much knowledge as I could helped so that I could understand the process and then also not being afraid to share my work with other people and get feedback early, early on when I was still, again, experiencing that sense of frustration where I had this vision for what I wanted the chapter to be, and I would write it, and it wasn't quite there, and I just thought, "Okay, this is how I get better is sharing it with other people." So, I did that early on and I did a lot of that. So, I think that's one thing that helped as well. And then...
Mary: I just want to pull on that thread for a second, because there really is a big difference in my experience between the academic. And I put reading in the academic category because you're sort of like you're ingesting information. You're sort of seeing how it's done. But the workshop where you actually do put yourself out there, not only for your own benefit, but to read the work of others, it becomes easier to sort of see some of these common issues with the work of others first. It eventually does trickle down to your own work, but there's still a bit of an ego barrier. And I don't say ego negatively, right? But we inherently care about our work and are emotional about it and maybe don't have that same objective perspective on it.
So, we're both freelance editors, right? I run a small group workshop where people give critique and give feedback. So, of course we're a little bit biased about getting outside feedback and, sort of, the benefits of getting that feedback. This is not meant to be a sales pitch, but it sounds like, for you, diving in maybe before you felt fully ready before you were achieving at that level that you saw in your head as the goal, diving in even if you hadn't hit that level yet, seemed like it put rocket boosters and getting that outside feedback and even giving feedback to others. So, it seemed like workshop really was the accelerant for you.
Katie: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it helped me get comfortable with that process because it's terrifying at first. I mean, you mentioned ego. It's scary as hell to put something in front of someone else and say, "Hey, what do you think of this? Give me feedback." But it also trained my eye so that I could start to notice, okay, what's working in someone else's story? What's not working? How can I tease apart character issues, setting issues, plot issues, all of these different things? Which strengthened my writing ability immensely. So, that's something that I talk a lot about with clients on social media, to any new writer is like, yes, this is very uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable, and you are putting yourself in a vulnerable place, but the more that you can exercise this muscle and get used to it early, the more that it's going to benefit you.
And I really saw that, again, with my own writing where it did not take very long from the time that I started writing to the time of signing with my first agent where I noticed a big difference in my writing. And what's interesting about it is, like, this process continues, right? I mean, I'm sure that, in 10 years, I will look back at this book that's on submission and think, "Oh, my gosh, you know, I should have done this, this, this, whatever," because I look back at that first book and think, "Oh, wow, I've grown a lot."
But that's what's great about the process of writing is that we're always getting better. We're always improving. And I think just having that willingness and, like you said, just diving in and saying, "I'm serious about this. This is something that I really want. I'm willing to do the work. I'm willing to get uncomfortable." And in my case, I really did see a big improvement in just a few years.
Mary: Yeah. So, I was reading... A book just came out from Murakami. It is "Novelist as a Vocation," and it's just kind of essays about the craft, and about being a novelist, a working novelist, and what that process is like over years, right? Because Murakami says that a lot of people have one book in them, two books, but it's really in the longevity of churning out books, and books, and ideas, and keeping it going. That kind of stamina is not available to everybody, right?
And one of the observations that I was just reading was this sense of just... Murakami cannot read his past works at all. And I know tons of writers who are like that, because even he said, at the galley stage, when a book is basically ready to go and it's like, "Please don't have any corrections," he gets his pen out and just marks up the whole galley. And the publishers hate it because I think we're never truly done. And it's so humbling but freeing, but also frustrating that a book is a time capsule, basically.
And to your point, if this gets published in five years, when you're doing something completely different or the market has also shifted, which I want to talk about in a minute, you might look back and... I can't look back at anything that's in print because I'm like, "Oh, my God, I see a typo," and it's going to kill me. My "Writing Irresistible Kidlit" book, which I finally put my books in my little trailer so I can hold them up because it's publicity and all that horrible soul-eating stuff, I spelled mustache wrong, and the copy editor didn't catch that. And I feel like tattooing my forehead saying I know how to spell mustache, and it just bothers me so much.
But I think letting go and I think, sort of, celebrating, "This is where I was," and then moving on because it is a journey, right? It's not as much as writers sometimes think that, you know, "If I get an agent, if I get a book deal, if I do this, if I do that, then I will finally be complete." Well, spoiler alert, the goalposts move because we, as humans, are phenomenal at moving goalposts on our happiness and fulfillment. And I think that's because happiness and fulfillment are not a destination.
But, yeah, I think it's so interesting that you... What I like about you, and I'm not trying to flatter or anything, but you have mentioned now in 20 short minutes stopping and taking stock. And I think that kind of self-awareness and that ability to, sort of, examine ourselves and sit with our discomfort and really look at what might be happening, why it might be happening, that kind of self-inquiry to me seems like entry to the game for a novelist or for an editor. Were you always like this or did you have to, sort of, train yourself to really take this kind of unflinching look at yourself, and your life, and your work?
Katie: I'm so glad you asked that. This is something that I love talking about. And the answer is, no, I was not always like this. Completely operating at just a totally different level where I just felt like things were totally out of my control. I was on a path and whatever, and life was just, "This is as good as life's going to get," and whatever. I didn't have the reflection. I didn't have the self-awareness. I didn't have the capacity for a lot of that. I struggled. My 20s were just a mess of trying different things and, I mean, crisis after crisis and figuring out who I was and what I wanted.
Mary: Are we the same person?
Katie: You know, it's a roller coaster. So, I got sober when I was 27, which I've talked about on social media before.
Mary: Oh, my God. I got sober... When was it? Eight years ago. So, I'm not going to reveal my age but around that time. Are we the same person?
Katie: I was just going to say. Holy crap.
Mary: Seriously.
Katie: Yeah, nine years. Yeah, that's insane.
Mary: We'll chat offline. So, you were sort of just existing, right, which is the category I would put myself in. Just existing, kind of going with the flow. You picked a thing. You're like, "I'm an English major, I guess I'll just starve now." And, you know, just keep your head down, self-medicate a little bit. You know, I'm projecting obviously from my own experience, but it sounds eerily similar.
Katie: You know.
Mary: We did not plan this before we got on the call.
Katie: No, we did not.
Mary: And then you were like, you know, something should change, and I want to do more self-inquiry because this can't be it.
Katie: Exactly. It really got to a point where... I mean, not just the bottom for my drinking, but it got to a point where I was so sick of being miserable and sick of being just frustrated at the way that my life was going. And it felt like this is the time for me to do something about it. It's going to be now or never. And I can't stand the thought of my life just going on at the same pace the same way forever like decades more of this. I just can't imagine that.
So, I found writing a couple of years after that. The first few years were just me, kind of, like, establishing a new baseline of figuring out how to function in the world and how to take care of myself. So, that was really the point when, you know, I discovered meditation. I started, like, journaling a bit more and just really getting intentional about... Well, first of all, naming what I was feeling. I mean, I had no concept of doing that before. I was like, "I feel sad," or, "I feel happy." Like, there was no in-between. So, it was getting used to how to identify how I was feeling, and then just, yeah, asking those big questions about my life. What do I want? What kind of person do I want to be? What are my goals?
And I hadn't really thought that far ahead before that point. So, initially it was kind of scary, but I think having that happen in my late 20s and then having these few years to establish a baseline and get a foundation under my feet allowed me to then go full steam ahead when I discovered writing, and editing, and just putting all of these pieces together. It's like I had laid that foundation already for myself to be open to those things.
It's funny. I had tried writing a few times before that in my 20s, but it just never... I would drink while I wrote, and it never worked. I would get, like, a page into something. I'm like, "I don't even know what I'm writing. I don't even know what this is." And it just never worked. And this isn't the case with everyone, of course, but for me, it wasn't until I got sober and healthy really that I could have the courage to write and to jump in.
Mary: Thanks so much for tuning in so far to "The Good Story Podcast." I just wanted to take a moment and let you know that we provide marketing services for those pre-published, about to be published, and already published authors who are listening. Anything from a marketing and social media audit to customized marketing plans with support from our marketing team, to done-for-you marketing grunt work so you can get back to what you love, which I would imagine is writing because nobody really comes alive doing email newsletters. So, let us help. You can learn more at goodstorycompany.com/marketing.
Mary: I do think that writers plumb the psychological depths of what it means to be human, what it means to be alive. I think it was Aristotle. I'm going to just butcher... I misattribute everything. I have like, you know, face blindness but like quote blindness and like title and author name blindness. But it's the I think Aristotelian question of, you know, how do we live our lives? I'm not saying stop self-medicating. Go get sober if you like to drink. If drinking is a problem, obviously maybe address it, right? But it's not a problem for everyone. It's not everybody's, sort of, escapism, but I do think that while you're medicating, while you're keeping your head down, it can be tougher to have something to say, because like you, I mean, I remember one time I was asking my therapist because I've heard for years and years and years, "Mary, you just have to feel your feelings." And one time I just, like, broke down crying and I was like, "How? Nobody tells you how to feel your feelings. All I know is that I'm this canister of rage," which anger gets misclassified but it means you're frustrated. You have something inside of you that needs to come out, and you don't have an outlet for it.
And it wasn't until I really started to sit with my feelings become aware of them. I mean, in today's social emotional learning world where everybody is like, "Yes, your feelings matter," like da, da, da, da, da, I felt like a prize idiot for having to learn from the ground up in my 30s. But I do think that you're working with psychological things in character creation but when you work with writers... I often joke that I'm an unlicensed therapist because you also take and hold space for... And I hate that phrase because it sounds so twee and precious, but you do hold space for other people's goals, and other people's dreams, and other people's, sort of, psychological portraits of themselves and their characters. And so it's just a lot of humanity that you're a conduit for in this work. And I do think that there is something to be said about getting on a strong foundation before embarking on it or as you're embarking on it because things aren't really that clear and cut and dry.
Katie: No, it's so true. And I think about the work. Now where I'm working with clients in a coaching capacity, and I think the same thing as you do, that sometimes it's like I'm an unlicensed therapist for people, because you mentioned something in the beginning of the episode that life just comes up, stuff happens. We are whole human beings outside of writing. It's not like we're just writers and then everything else is compartmentalized. Like, we are full, rich human beings who have all kinds of other stuff going on.
And mental health can affect our writing. What's going on at work can affect our writing, our relationships, all the stories that we're telling ourselves about why we're not good enough, why should just give up on this project, whatever it is, those all play into it. And I don't think that I would be anywhere near as good at what I do if I hadn't had that experience and gone through and done all of that work on myself. Even though it wasn't fun, even though it was hard, there's no way I could ever be working with people in this capacity and be able to really, again, like you said, hold space for people if I hadn't gone through some of that stuff myself and, kind of, climbed my way out of the pit to get to this place now.
So, I think a lot about how the relationship that alcohol plays with writing and how we can romanticize like, "Oh, sitting down with a strong cocktail," or like, "It releases your inhibitions, and it lets the words flow onto the page." And if that works for you, that's amazing. I have plenty of writer friends who have a glass of wine while they write, and it's great and it's wonderful. But, yeah, for me it was just a barrier. It was a barrier in between me and the things that I wanted to say. And, yeah, there's no way I'd be able to tell the stories and write the way that I do now if I was still drinking. No way.
Mary: Well, I think it's interesting that you say release inhibitions, right? Alcohol is famous for that, but is there another release? If you are a writer that is telling yourself stories, which I very much agree with this idea of, kind of, self-narrative, people don't examine their self-narratives, right? And maybe they got them...it's a parent's voice or it's a societal voice, a cultural voice that tells them things. But, you know, if you feel that you have a barrier to your work, if you feel that something is standing in your way, I think it might be an interesting reminder, like, this conversation might be an interesting reminder to just examine what that might be. Are you really a failure? Are you a miserable, untalented schmuck? Or is that a writing teacher 20 years ago who said that you should give up, which is not a writing teacher's place at all? And I would say that person overstepped and didn't take care with their job.
But there are other ways to remove those inhibitions and to give yourself permission to write without doing it chemically. Like I said, this is not teetotalers' meeting of the month. I'm not trying to push an ideology on anyone, but I do think that sometimes people have these barriers, conscious or unconscious, to even calling themselves a creator or a creative or an artist. And it's like, "I can't, I'm too boring. I have nothing to say." And yet there's a disconnect between that pressure and this internal ember that you have that's like, "You need to write, you need to write."
And people are sometimes very successful at dampening that energy, but then it just erupts in misery. It erupts in other ways, because I think those people who are called to write, who are inspired to write, it's not that easy to put that fire out. So, if you find yourself with that tension on the one hand of, "Ugh, you suck. You have nothing to say," and on the other hand, "I need to write with my one precious life," as Mary Oliver would say, get right into that gap between those two things and figure out what the friction is because I'm, again, not a therapist, but I think, in a lot of cases, you can remove that barrier yourself without needing to drink, or needing to this, or needing to that, or needing to print business cards before you can start writing that say "writer" so that you feel validated. People put all kinds of barriers in their own way, which is not to disregard, you know, barriers of, "I need to afford a roof over my head. I have a lot of time pressure. I'm a caretaker." It is a privileged position to be able to, sort of, indulge your creativity, but for some people, it is as essential as that roof over their head. That ember is not going to go out. And so what is blocking you? What is stopping you? It might be inside.
Katie: Yeah, yeah. And the first step is always awareness. It's always, what is this thing? Can I name what it is? Can I articulate and just shed light on this thing? And that's uncomfortable sometimes, but I think that's always the first step is just bringing it to light and not judging it too. That's something I always talk about with clients. Like, whatever your inner critic is telling you, whatever that voice is telling you, name it, acknowledge it, articulate it but also don't judge yourself because so many of the barriers that we think of as reasons why we can't write, why we shouldn't, why our story isn't good enough, all these things, like so many writers feel that way.
Mary: So many.
Katie: It is so, so common. I mean, any writer I've ever talked to about this experiences this. Clients experienced this. It's so common. And there's something so comforting or that that was something that was comforting to me in the beginning is realizing I'm part of this community now of people who have gone through this, have managed to find a way to write and publish and do all these things despite that voice or that barrier saying, "You can't do this. You're not good enough." Whatever the voice says. And it's not something that has to be...where we have to get over it before we can...
Mary: Right.
Katie: I'm also someone who always misattributes quotes. I want to say... What was it?
Mary: Terry Pratchett is always a good choice. Alice Monroe. I don't know. Somebody.
Katie: Just ripping out names.
Mary: Not helping.
Katie: "Eat, Pray, Love," the woman who talks about...
Mary: Oh, Elizabeth Gilbert.
Katie: Thank you. I'm like Elizabeth something. Why can I not think of her last name? I think it's Elizabeth Gilbert in "Big Magic" where she talks about being in the passenger seat with that imposter syndrome, you know, that they're your companion, the imposter syndrome and the doubts and all of that in this process. Yeah, it's not something we get over before we write. We just got to do it anyway.
Mary: I have saved this on my Instagram, and I will put this in the show notes, but I saw a woman whose name I cannot remember who did a graduation speech and it was this amazing take on imposter syndrome. So, basically around the time that women were fighting for suffrage, they invented... They being the patriarchy, right? I'm not trying to make this a rant but they invented this affliction called bicycle face, which is so funny, which was this tense concentration-filled kind of like [vocalization] face that women only, mind you, made while riding a bicycle. And they tried to make it like a thing so that, you know, women would get concerned and stop riding bicycles.
Well, what was behind this apparently conspiracy theory time, women had started wearing pantaloons, and they were bicycling to their suffrage rallies. And people were feeling very threatened by this dynamic, and so they tried to invent a thing to put women back in their place. And this speech, which I will try and find and put in the show notes, was all about how imposter syndrome is the bicycle face of the new millennium, because it is something that is being sort of almost implanted in people to make them doubt themselves. And now it's like a thing, and we can name it, and we're like, "Yes, I do feel like an imposter," but that has a sneaky way.
The dark side of that... The front side is like validation and, yes, other people feel this way, and it's okay, and it normalizes these self doubts that we have, but the sneaky implication of imposter syndrome could be like, "Yeah, I should feel bad. I should fake it till I make it." And it almost has a counter effect to to this more empowering validation part. I mean, I think you're totally right. People can't get away from self-doubt, and I think that they never will. But the thing is to just do it anyway. There's a Ben Folds, I will never miss a tribute of Ben Folds, song. There is a Ben Folds song that's just like, "Do it anyway." Do it anyway, otherwise it's just not going to get done. And that little ember inside of you is going to be like, "But what about your creativity?"
Katie: Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned the dark side of that because I was thinking, you know, I don't want anyone to listen to this and think like, "Oh, I have to be feeling all of these things or there's something wrong with me if I'm not filled with doubt, and dread, and imposter syndrome, and fear, and all of this stuff." And just as an example, I mean, I mentioned earlier that I always felt like I had a book in me. I always felt like a writer, even though I was not writing when I was a kid, really or until I hit 30. But there was a certainty within me, and I still have that certainty. Even though I still don't have a published book, even though my path to publishing has been not the way that I would have predicted with having a book not sell on submission and now I'm going through this again, I still have an absolute certainty that I will be a published author, that I will go on to write many books. I don't know exactly what it's going to look like, but I have that certainty.
So, yes, even though I still have some doubts and question, am I good enough? You know, especially when I'm drafting something new, there's always that voice. But I have a certainty and so, you know, I think that's something that a lot of writers can feel as well. Like, if you have that burning desire and you know that this is something you're meant to do, it's okay to trust that.
Mary: Yeah. So, I'm going to flip your flip and say that self-awareness, as I think we've established as the baseline for this conversation, is key, right? But there is a brand of usually early writer that is maybe too confident in their work as is, and they have racked up passes, and they're the flavor of writer who's like, "All y'all need to get on my level. I am a genius," that's not to say that this is bad at all, but editor to editor, confidant to confidant for writers, if you see somebody that is convinced that they're up here but they have work to do, what is a way to normalize that feeling as well and sort of what prescription would you give for that kind of writer who has that certainty but maybe the craft isn't yet, or the market knowledge, or the industry knowledge hasn't yet risen to the level of that certainty?
Katie: Right. That's a great question and a great point, because I've definitely seen that in coaching clients, editing clients, people talking on social media about their experience with querying. It is common. So, I think what's key there is the balance. Like, yes, keep that fire, keep that excitement. Have that be your goal and your dream. Don't let that die. But also balance it with writing is... Developing your craft is something that takes time. It takes time. It takes feedback from other people. It takes learning. You're not going to know everything right away. You're not going to get everything right in your first book. And it takes a level of humility to recognize that and understand that. So, I just think balance is key. Having the dream, having the passion, keeping that alive but also enough self-awareness and humility to recognize that it takes time to do that.
And I think something with editing, in particular, is being open to criticism and open to feedback because the ultimate purpose is to help you grow as a writer. If an editor gives you feedback on something, let's just say, it's not because they're tearing you apart, and think you're a horrible person, and you're never going to succeed. The ultimate goal is to help you improve as a writer. So, I think having an open mind and being open and receptive to the fact that you can improve no matter who you are as a writer, there is room for improvement, that's going to go a long way.
Mary: Yeah, and just personally and anecdotally, I can share that the writers who tend to advance have a healthy certainty and have healthy self-esteem that lets them weather the low points, right? But they do that humility that, "I could always improve." I think that takes you further than, "I know everything already. Thanks. Just give me my book deal." But I do think it's a balance.
And in terms of feedback, I was reading this Murakami book, which I've also put in the show notes and I'm not like name dropping Murakami because I think I'm an elite, intellectual or whatever, but he did write something that I have spent a lot of time thinking about, which is sometimes you'll get notes. And as long as you're open minded, you can have the confidence to be like, especially if somebody proposes a specific fix, "Hey, I don't think this prologue is working and I would do it this way."
What Murakami found is true with his own editorial relationships is, you know, always take that first part of the feedback. Something about this prologue isn't working. You may not go for the fix that the person suggested but that they had an issue with that portion of the story, the prologue, whatever, the midpoint, whatever, that is the feedback that you can take and then kind puzzle over yourself because it just tells you that that something isn't connecting there. And that's the valuable feedback. The fix that somebody proposes... In workshops, somebody might be like, "Well, what if you made the character a beaver." I don't know where this person suddenly came out of my head, but you're like, "Well, I don't think the beaver's it, my friend, but you're saying something about point of view," which I will then kind of maybe take and run with in my own way.
So, I do think that it's a balance of, "I am confident in this, confident enough to get out of bed and do it another day. I don't know everything though." And that's the thing that kind of keeps that ember burning and keeps kind of stoking those fires. If you think you know everything but it's just the world that's wrong, that can also be a bit of a dangerous kind of self-limiting position to take.
Katie: Completely, especially when you are relying on other people to get you to where you think you want to go. I mean, we've seen examples of agents... Agents will share sample emails or responses that they get when they reject a query. And the writer goes like, "You have no idea what you just passed up."
Mary: You will be sorry.
Katie: Yeah, and it's like the nerve and the ego of these people to think that their first book that they wrote is somehow just going to be an automatic success, and that this agent is an idiot for passing it up. It's mind boggling to me. Yeah, so I really think it is.
And I was humbled very quickly when I started writing, because, again, realizing that the level of my skill was nowhere near where it needed to be. I submitted some short stories to places like Paris Review. I mean, I didn't know. I didn't know what I didn't know and quickly got humbled and realized my writing ability was just not...it wasn't there yet, but that was okay. I was willing to learn. I had time to learn. I was going to put in the work. So, yeah, I really think it is just a balance between having the self-esteem and the confidence but then realizing that there's so much that you don't know and there's so much that you have to be willing to learn.
Mary: But that's the lifelong joy of it. So, a lot of publishing and a lot of writing is also about expectation management, right? And at the beginning, you don't know what you don't know. It is a business. Unfortunately, it is a business that people are having layoffs. Imprints are closing. You're going to have to weather a lot of external things outside of your control and also internal things that are difficult to control like that self-doubt, like the speed at which you gather those skills.
The more you can focus on this part of it rather than that part of it, the better your experience will be. If all you want is that book deal and it's got to be a million dollars and a lead title with a Big Five publisher, you're going to have a tougher time because the writers that really make it in the long-term are the ones who keep working on their craft no matter what else is happening.
And I did promise to come back to market, but we ended up having a much, I think, more important holistic conversation. But I did want to ask you. You just so happened to be reading and writing and really into a category that is very marketable right now, do you ever see that shifting? And how much a premium do you put on what the market is doing when you select what you're going to be doing?
Katie: This is something that I am wrestling with currently as I think about my next book and think about what makes sense. And I still want to write a psychological thriller. The genre isn't changing for me anytime soon. But I have noticed that certain types of thrillers do...it does feel like we're approaching this point in the market where it feels a bit oversaturated. Like, a lot of the same types of stories are being told.
Mary: Like the five books that BookTok recommends that are female-driven thrillers, and it's just the same thing.
Katie: Yes. So, that worries me... Not worries me. I shouldn't say that, but it's something I'm paying attention to as a writer and a reader. How is this going to be shifting in the future? And I think there's an opportunity for just more diverse kinds of stories being told in the thriller space. But ultimately when it comes to me writing, I want to tell the stories that I want to tell. So, I'm definitely paying attention to the market, but I'm also honoring the ideas that I have in the direction that I want to go in because I cannot imagine only writing a book to market and how tough that would be.
There has to be something that really drives me forward in the story that I'm curious about, that I want to explore, that I keep coming back to. And for me, a lot of that is about relationship dynamics, and female friendship, and different generations of women, and mental health, and all of these things that are in this larger space of being a thriller and having some exciting things thrown in there. But, yeah, it's going to be interesting to see. Publishing at large, where things go in the next five years, but on a smaller level, just in the thriller space, what kinds of books are being acquired and published? Yeah, it'll be interesting to see.
Mary: I think it's all about balance. I mean, we just keep coming back to it, paying attention to the market but honoring your own creative... I don't think writing to market is particularly bad or nasty. I agree that something about it should draw you to that market. And I do think that a lot of indie writers do really well, sort of, you're like, "I know my tropes. I know my audience. It's this hyper specific segment of romance, and I'm just going to..." But that's fun, and you're an expert in that space, and you can write to market without it being a dirty word.
But I do think that if you just try to prognosticate the trends and write to market, especially for trad, which has kind of a longer lead time than some indie, you need something about it that excites you. Otherwise, again, you're going to have a bad time. You're going to have a bad time if you need to be a bestseller right out of the gate. You're going to have a bad time if you give yourself six months to learn how to write a novel. And you're going to have a bad time if you don't pay attention to the whole creature, the whole animal and feelings. And, yeah, I just think growth as a writer is growth as a human.
Katie: Mm, yes. Oh, totally. It's all of the things that we've talked about kind of like applying to just life more broadly, having a sense of curiosity, having a sense of self-awareness, paying attention to what excites you but also having humility with learning new things, being a beginner, like all of that. I say this all the time, but it's like writing a book or just writing in general is like one of the most amazing personal development exercises that you can go through because it forces you to confront all of these things and examine all of these things. And I had no idea I was getting into that when I started writing. I was just like, "I want to write a book."
Mary: This will be fun.
Katie: Yeah, how hard can it be? Little did I know...
Mary: Little did you know, but it sounds like it's also been incredibly rewarding both personally, professionally. Your clients who are lucky to work with you benefit from the work that you're doing. I mean, again, I'm a freelance editor myself. I work with writers. I absolutely love it, but I just think it is such a wonderful thing to be involved in on all levels, because look at what's possible when you come alive, and you help other people come alive, and your books help your readers come... You know, it's just... I don't know. We're ending on a total love fest but I think...
Katie: All the warm, fuzzy feelings. It's true.
Mary: All the fuzzy feelings, why not? Life is hard enough day to day that you need a little boost but also a gentle reality check I think. And, you know, if you find yourself really resonating with this idea of like, what are my blocks? Like, what am I avoiding? Maybe this is your Wednesday or whenever it is that you listen to this reminder to maybe poke into that tender spot a little bit and see what's there, because what comes from doing that might surprise and amaze you.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Get curious, get in there and see what comes of it.
Mary: Get in there. Get in there, Katie Wolf. Where can people find you? And what do you have on your slate that might be exciting coming up aside from, fingers crossed, a book?
Katie: Yes, that's the biggest thing, hopefully. But I am most active on TikTok and Instagram @thekatiewolf. And I also have a writing podcast. It's called "Blank Page to Book." People can check out wherever you listen to podcasts. And I'm going to be launching... So, I'm going on a maternity leave this fall, so I'm kind of taking a pause with clients and everything, but I am launching something called The Writer Shop, which is just a collection of trainings and resources for writers. I'll have trainings in there that are prerecorded about different subjects, so characters, editing your draft, different things like that. So, yeah, you can check me out on social media, and I'll make a big announcement once that's launching and available, but I'm excited about that to give people some more training and resources again because I'm all about classes and workshops and, you know, taking advantage of those things to help you improve your craft.
Mary: You did a lot of that, and now you are paying it forward. And it sounds like people can learn asynchronously. And just like us at Good Story Company, we want to be where people are and in a format that helps as many writers as possible.
Katie: Yeah, exactly.
Mary: And best of luck with that baby.
Katie: Thank you. Thank you. It's going to be an interesting process of navigating all the things but...
Mary: The next time I see you, you will have these beautiful bags under your eyes.
Katie: Oh, yeah, dark circles.
Mary: And these beautiful wrinkles.
Katie: Greasy hair. I'll just be a mess, I'm sure, but hopefully a good mess.
Mary: Yup, but you know what? Sometimes people make a mess look good, which is what I keep telling myself. No, you have been a delight and just such an amazing conversation [vocalization] left turn about the holistic writer and just the mindset behind writing and supporting others and supporting yourself.
Katie: I'm so happy that we took that detour. That was fantastic.
Mary: Me too. Craft schmaft.
Katie: I know.
Mary: No, I'm kidding. But it all has a place at the table. Katie Wolf, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been "The Good Story Podcast," and here's to a good story.
Katie: Thank you so much for having me.
Mary: My pleasure.
Thanks so much for joining me. This has been "The Good Story Podcast" with me, Mary Kole. I just want to offer a heartfelt thank you and bit of gratitude to the entire Good Story Company team. You can find out more at goodstorycompany.com and of course to all of you listening and taking the time to really dig into these conversations with me. This has been "The Good Story Podcast," and here's to a good story.
Want even more Good Story Company content? Become a member! Get access to tips, workshops, handouts, resources and videos for writers of all levels—all for less than your Netflix subscription. This post contains affiliate links.
