Award-winning children’s book writer Ronald L. Smith, author of Black Panther: The Young Prince and Spellbound, joins the Good Story Podcast. We talk about writing dark and unconventional stories for middle grade, his writing routine, and marketing yourself as an author. And, of course, he tells all about what it’s like to write in collaboration with Marvel.

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Podcast Transcript

Mary: Hello, this is Mary Kole and "The Good Story Podcast," helping writers craft a good story. With me, you will hear from thought leaders related to writing, and sometimes not, about topics important to writers of all categories and ability levels. Here is to telling a good story.

Hello, everybody, this is Mary Kole with Good Story Podcast. With me today, I have middle-grade and more, author Ronald L. Smith, but he said I can call him Ron, which is very lovely. Ron, why don't you introduce yourself?

Ronald: Hi, Mary, thanks for having me. Yes, thank you very much. So yes, I'm Ronald L. Smith and I'm an author of several middle-grade novels. Most of my books are spooky and kind of supernatural. That's the way I like it. So yes, that's what I do and I'm really happy to be a writer for young readers.

Mary: Oh, wonderful. And I'm very happy to have you and to talk a little bit more about your work but also, your journey. And I love good, spooky material. Where do you think that this sort of worldview came about for you? Why are you sort of attracted to these world characters and premises?

Ronald: Wow. That's a good question. I've asked myself that several times and I don't really know the answer. I've tried writing normal, contemporary stories but like, you know...

Mary: Yuck. Why?

Ronald: But a ghost or a demon always shows up and demands to be put into the book. But, you know, as a kid, I read a lot of fantasy and science fiction, not horror so much. Horror really wasn't a big thing when I was growing up. I mean, there was Stephen King but, you know, there's a lot more of that today. And I still don't think of myself as a horror writer. Although when "Hoodoo" first came up, people called it horror. And I thought it was more Southern Gothic. So, I said, "Oh, I want to be like a Southern Gothic-type writer." But I've always been drawn to kind of the fantastical, and the spooky, and the supernatural, so it just seems to fit for me. I like those weird places in the dark, you know, and the imagination that you can write about. And, I guess, it's kind of cathartic for me as well because I write about things that I might be afraid of, so, you know, once you have the mastery of that story, you could do what you want with it and kind of face your fears, so, you know, it's just something I'm drawn to in all mediums, whether its books, movies, whatever.

Mary: That is really interesting. So to your point about Stephen King, there is this wisdom in...we'll see if it's wisdom, but in the publishing industry that kids, especially some boy readers may be disenfranchised readers, they sort of bounce out of middle grade, right around that age group and go up to, you know, adult horror, adult thriller, adult fantasies, and science fiction. But with the market developing, as it has been over the last decade or so, there really seems to be this place now where we can play with some of those worlds, some of those concepts, characters, situations for that middle-grade audience.

Ronald: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, kids would jump right from, you know, R. L. Stine and Goosebumps to Stephen King, you know. And there's just so much more of it now that kids can find, you know. And that's why I like the middle-grade space so much because you can have really, really, sweet, tender, kind of a discover yourself kind of stories, and then you can add something completely creepy. And it's such a wide variety of categories within middle grade. And sometimes, I hear YA writers go, "Oh, I like middle grade. It's so sweet and fun." And I go, "Have you read my books? They're pretty creepy."

And, you know, it's funny because lately, I've been saying, "Hey, I write literary fiction for kids," because, you know, before I became published with "Hoodoo," I thought I was gonna be a different kind of writer. You know, I would write short stories for "The Paris Review" and "The New Yorker" and I thought I was gonna be one of those writers, so like Mr. Literary Writer. And, you know, the rejection slips kept coming and there were a few good ones with a few handwritten notes but...

Mary: Ah, "The New Yorker" is a tough business.

Ronald: And then, I was like, "Wait a minute. You know, maybe I was supposed to be writing these kinds of stories I liked as a kid, like The Lord of the Rings and Narnia, and all these books." And once I discovered that, that was like, "Oh, this is what I'm supposed to be writing," you know. So, I think, you know, we call it young people's literature. We have these categories like middle grade and young adult. I just say "Hey. I write fiction for kids, for adults, for whoever wants to read it." So, I try to still bring that literary bent to my middle-grade novels. I don't feel like I'm speaking down because as you know, our audiences are very smart kids, and they don't want that. So, I still feel as if it's literary writing for a young audience.

Mary: And who says they have to be mutually exclusive?

Ronald: Right. Exactly.

Mary: So, a couple of things that I would love to dive in here. I'm gonna put a pin in this question about catharsis, which I think is really interesting. Let's get a timeline of Ronald in your writing journey. Now, the most delightful thing that I think people will be treated with, other than your beautiful covers, you have lucked out.

Ronald: Yeah, I really have.

Mary: In a big way. But, in your bio on your website, you say you are a former Ad Bro, which just endeared me immediately. So being in advertising and having a career in that space involved a lot of writing, I would imagine. So, tell me about your early relationship with writing. And then we can talk about how you made the big, wide pivot.

Ronald: Right, right, right. Yeah, well, you know, I have three brothers. I have a younger brother and two older. My youngest brother, we're closest in age. And when we were young, you know, we discovered "The Lord of the Rings" and we were complete geeks. You know, we would both write stories but he was also an artist so he would draw, and I would write. You know, I love English. I loved English class and spelling bees and vocabulary. And I just devoured books as a kid. And, you know, I've wanted to find a way to, you know, you grow up, you got to get a job, blah, blah, blah, so...

Mary: Oh, ew.

Ronald: Yeah, so I discovered advertising which is like, you know, I tell kids when I do school visits, I say, "You know, when you see those commercials on TV, or you hear a commercial on the radio, or whatever, or an ad in a magazine, you know, somebody has to write those things." And I found myself in the world of advertising. And the thing that was good about it was at least I was able to make a living from using words, you know. It wasn't like I was doing a different type of job so...

Mary: And storytelling.

Ronald: Exactly.

Mary: I mean, advertising, marketing is all about telling a story. The story might be about paper towels or tacos, but it's still meant to trigger our emotions. Our lizard brain is activated.

Ronald: Absolutely. And you have to do it succinctly. You have to do it smart. You have to do it in 30 seconds or 15 seconds. So, it really taught me how to tell a story quickly, how to utilize good grammar, how to use a hook, you know, to get people interested. And for a number of years, it was a lot of fun doing that kind of work. I worked for some big firms in Chicago. I would travel to L.A. to shoot commercials and stay in fancy hotels. It was a lot of fun. But, ultimately, it began to just kind of wear on my soul a little too much. I would leave the office to go, "What did I contribute today? Oh, I found a new way to sell cheeseburgers. Oh, I just sold a new car, another fossil fuel guzzler." And it just really started to bug me and that's when I really, really focused on my writing and sure enough, you know, it happened. And I never thought it would. I thought I was too old. I didn't have enough experience. You know, so I always tell people that are younger than me, I say, "Look. If it happened to me, it can certainly happen to you. If you don't get a bite from your query letter in five tries, you might want to keep trying."

Mary: Oh, absolutely. I speak with a lot of writers. So, in my editorial practice, I have a lot of writers saying, "You know, I'm not a 19-year-old TikTok celebrity. What chance do I have? What hope do I have?" And as long as you're mentally sharp, this is one field where you can keel over at your laptop in your ninth decade and still be writing. So, I think it's really important to tell those stories of writers who arrived in a second or a third career even to the page.

Ronald: Right. And I have a whole thing about that. I do a presentation on Richard Adams who wrote "Watership Down" when he was in his, like, 50s. He wrote that book and you, know, there are so many stories like that. Mary Downing Hahn is a great horror writer. She's still kicking and doing incredibly cool stories. So, yeah, it's been a dream come true for me, really, to go from advertising and finding myself as a full-time writer. It's been a real dream come true.

Mary: So, what did that look like? Because we're getting a very, very nice story about it right now. You transitioned. You used your skills that you learned in the ad world. But what did that look like? Did you sort of leap from the stability of your ad career into writing without a safety net? Or were you sort of overlapping both for a while as you developed your fiction off-hours?

Ronald: Well, that's a great question. You know, I live in Maryland now, but I lived in Chicago for 15 years. So, once I got serious about my writing, you know, I joined SCBWI. I found a critique group online. And I would get up at 6 a.m. on those freezing Chicago mornings, walk down to Intelligentsia, which was my favorite coffee shop which I still miss to this day, and I would start writing. And I would write for two or three hours, and then I would put on a tie, go into the office, and put on the advertising stuff. And then, by the time I got home, I was just wiped out, you know, because, at that time, I worked best in the mornings. And, you know, every writer has their time when they can be at their best. But once I came home, I was exhausted. I was just out of mental energy. So, I did that, you know, constantly, for several years until... So, I wrote two novels that were not very good. And then, with "Hoodoo" I got requested by an agent and then, it took off from there. And I got a two-book deal from that first contract. And, you know, I've been working in advertising for quite a long time, so, you know, I was pretty well set. So, I told my wife, I said, "You know, I think it's time for me to just jump." So, she said, "Okay. Sure." So, we've been okay ever since. So, yeah, I've been very fortunate with my career that I've been able to do that. You know, when you have a spouse that has health insurance, it certainly helps.

Mary: Oh my goodness.

Ronald: Yeah. So, yeah, I've been pretty fortunate in that arena. But, yeah, that's it in a nutshell. I would just shift hats. You know, I would be the fiction guy in the morning and then, I would be the mad man, Don Draper, you know, at 9 a.m.

Mary: So, this writing, you say like it was pretty easy. You go down to the coffee shop, you start writing, you pound it out for two hours. During that time, when you were writing these two novels that didn't end up getting you to an agent standpoint, how were they coming to you? What were you drawing on for inspiration sort of practically? What did it look like when you sat down at the fiction page?

Ronald: Well, I think those first few attempts were very derivative things that, you know, are so ingrained in the one psyche. Like, I was a big fantasy Lord of the Rings traditional fantasy fan. So, you know, you have to get that stuff out of the way first. And I spent a long time on those types of ideas, and I was like, "You know what, I don't know if this is right, you know. This just doesn't seem like it's me, you know." And then, I started thinking, like, "Oh, I like fantasy. I like spooky stories." And I tell kids at schools, you know like when I talk about "The Lord of the Rings" and Narnia, and those books, what I didn't realize as a kid was there wasn't anybody in those stories who look like me. And I don't remember it really consistently but I do recall, like, a feeling like there's something missing here. So I said, "What if I write a story about..." You know, they say write what you know. So, my family is from the South and Alabama, so I said, "What if I did something in Alabama? You know, it's like there's so much tradition there, and spookiness, and the weeping willow trees, and the food, and the slang, and they have this tradition of hoodoo, which is African-American folk magic," and it all just kind of came, right? And then, I said, "Huh, maybe this is it?" And I think we did the first books, kind of came out around that same time, like 2014, 2015. So, there was kind of a groundswell for these types of stories. And I think I just hit it at the right time where publishers and agents were looking for more diverse voices. And that's how it started, you know, once I realized it. "Wait a minute, I don't have to write this kind of Western fantasy, traditional model. I don't have to use that. You know, I didn't see any black hobbits or black elves in Lord of the Rings." So that's what kind of kicked it off and it seemed to have worked for me. So, yeah, that's what it looked like.

Mary: So you fed kind of the traditional framework that you ingested as a kid into the brain and you made a pivot to represent your own voice, your own culture, and you came up...so you have sort of described the atmosphere of Alabama and the setting, the Spanish moss, and the Southern Gothic, and all of that. Is that your entry point into the stories that you tell? Is it sort of about the vibe, let's say? Is it plot? Is it character? Is it the thing lurking in the shadows? What do you find for your nugget?

Ronald: That's a tough one. I think, for me, it's kind of setting and landscape, you know. Where is this world? What is it like? Is it our world? Is it a slightly skewed world? You know, I kind of see a landscape first for some reason. That's what comes to me. I know with a lot of people, it's character. But, like, you know, in "The Mesmerist" after "Hoodoo," it was 19th century England, I wanted something completely different from, you know, Southern Alabama. And then, another book, "Gloom Town," is kind of a made up world which is kind of North America and Europe, where there's a portmanteau that I used called Europica. I think it's used somewhere else as well. So that's kind of a blending of both cultures continents. So, I don't know. I just think of a location, you know, because there's so much to be said about a location. There's so much description. There's so much history, so much you can draw from, whether it's the South, whether it's 19th century London, whether it's a made up fantasy world site, that seems to be always the thing for me. It's kind of where does this world take place. Where are these characters? And then, I kind of go from there.

Mary: But it also seems like there is a bit of a historical framework as well. So, if you think about the 1930s for "Hoodoo," if you think of the tradition of spiritualism for Mesmerist, it's sort of is... It impacts the story.

Ronald: Absolutely.

Mary: And then, how do your characters arrive on the scene?

Ronald: Well, you know, Mary, I have to say, I'm a bit of a, what is it, a pantser. Actually, I heard that...

Mary: ...creepy to me about this interview.

Ronald: I heard a new one today and I think it was, well, you know, there's a pantser and a plotter. And somebody said there were a plantser, P-L-A-N. So, they kind of plan the big moments. You know, the characters... Gosh, I wish I could answer this and then, make sense but, you know, I get an idea of who they are and what they're about. I don't always know what they want immediately. You know, there's so much writing advice out there, okay. What does your character want? What's stopping them from getting it, you know, which are great exercises. And I usually do that about 100 pages in, once I figure out what I'm doing.

Mary: You're like, "Man, I need to put some structure on this thing."

Ronald: Right, right. So, the characters got to grow with me. You know, I'm discovering them as they're discovering themselves, if that makes sense in a way. But, yes, so, I don't know if that's an answer or not.

Mary: So, we start with the world, characters populate it, and then ingredients, fantasy ingredients we have, the literal stranger coming to town in "Hoodoo." What is that element, because it's taken many forms in your various books, including aliens?

Ronald: Oh, yeah. Wow. Do you want me to talk for three hours about aliens?

Mary: I would love to. At least five minutes. I think we deserve this treat that I feel is coming.

Ronald: Well, this book, "The Owls Have Come to Take Us Away"...

Mary: I love the title and the cover so much. It is just a beautiful, beautiful cover.

Ronald: Yeah, thank you. You know, I grew up on Air Force bases and, you know, eventually...because, for the longest time, I thought that was all there was to the world. You know, as kids, we lived on Air Force bases and we knew that somewhere outside that gate was another world, you know, and they were called civilians. "Oh my god. Who are they? What are they?" You know, everything on an Air Force base is... You have a commissary, which is like a grocery store. You have a DX, which is like a fine and dine. You know, everything is so self-contained. And I thought, like, "Wow." I grew up that way, but I've never really written about it, and there are a lot of kids out there who have no idea what life on an Air Force base is like. So, I said that would be a great setting for this story about aliens. And I was always terrified of aliens, not so much as a kid, but kind of as a young adult, like, "Oh, you know, the grey aliens are abducting people," and all that stuff. So, I said, "This could be a really fun, cool subject." So, I created this novel about a 12-year-old, biracial kid named Simon who lives on an Air Force base, which I described in great detail in the book. And he thinks he's been abducted by aliens, and no one believes him. Not his parents. Not his teachers. And then, I always say to kids, "You've got to read the book to find out if it really happened or not." But, yeah, that was a fun one for me and, you know, like I said, it was kind of cathartic to write it in a way, facing your fears, you know.

Mary: And critics called it a middle-grade X Files primer, which I need to reveal that my AOL screen name, my first-ever online avatar contained the word, Scully.

Ronald: All right. That's fantastic.

Mary: I was a big fan. But I love this idea of "Can I trust myself? Can I trust my imagination? Is my experience real and valid," which is a very middle-grade theme.

Ronald: Right. Yes, indeed. Indeed, it is. And, you know, I mean, I can look at these books after they're written and go back and think about what they mean and what the theme is. But usually, it's someone who kind of tells me, like you just told me just now. You know, as writers, you don't always set out with a theme, or this is what I want to give. Some writers do that but I don't usually think that way. I just try to write a really good book. And then, after it's done, I can tell you what I was trying to do with this book, or maybe a review will tell me what I was trying to say. Sometimes, they're right. Sometimes, I'm like, "Oh, that's not what I was thinking." But, you know, I really think it's up to the reader to really take away what they get from it. I just want them to like it and be engaged by a good story, you know.

Mary: You're just ruining the writing advice that I usually give.

Ronald: Oh, no.

Mary: You're like, "Well, I just sit there and I channel it. And then, we make meaning from the artifact."

Ronald: Well, that's so strange. There are so many ways to go about it, to go about writing a story, you know, write every day, keep a journal. I think all those things are great. Sometimes, I break those rules. Some days, I don't write at all, you know, when I should be. And we just have to do that. We have to take a mental break now and then. But I do think, Mary, like, it is good advice for writers first starting out, looking at a blank page. They have some type of structure. Right? So, I think those well-known tips and advice are certainly worth looking at when you're first starting out. I always tell people to finish their work, you know. That's one.

Mary: Oh, that's so crucial.

Ronald: Right, right. Finish what you start. Right? Type "The End." Put it away for a week and then, look at it again and say, "Hey, I'm revising now." There's a lot of different ways to be a writer.

Mary: So, a couple of things here. I do think that writers spend too little time refilling the well. To pull from Julia Cameron, "The Artist's Way," who talks a lot about kind of connecting with your inner creator, and getting that inspiration and just living in the world, rather than just swirling in the anxiety of a blank page or a manuscript, you know. That world can become so self-contained if you never feed any external data into that.

Ronald: Right, right. You definitely need to replenish that well whether it's other creative endeavors, reading another book, watching movies, taking a break, doing yoga. Whatever it is, you have to keep yourself, you know, full, right, of ideas and inspiration, and it comes from everywhere. You know, you could get it anywhere. I don't really have the chance to read as much as I used to, you know, before being published. And I always say, "Hey, nobody told me that if I achieve my dream of becoming a writer, I wouldn't have time to read as much books." But I keep buying the books. I don't know when I'll get around to reading them but yes, it's very important to stay engaged in any type of creative, you know, endeavor you can find to feed the imagination.

Mary: So, this is your creative process and this is how you approach your sort of standalone, independent work. Now, you are also notable for your work in the Marvel Universe with Black Panther. How did that collaboration come about?

Ronald: Wow. Well, after my first two books, "Hoodoo" and "The Mesmerist," I got a call from my agent, agent [inaudible 00:25:52.026]. And she said, "Are you sitting down?" I said, "Should I be?" Well, this was right around the time of the first "Black Panther" movie. She said, "Well, I've got a call from Marvel, and they want to know if you want to write a book about the young T'Challa." And I was, like, " Ah, yeah, I think so." "Can you do it in, like, you know, three weeks?" It wasn't that bad. But, yeah, they had a tight timeline. So, yeah, I said, "Yes," and we talked to the Marvel people. They said, "Hey, you know, write a story about 12-year-old T'Challa. It can be any story you want, an original story." They wouldn't tell me anything about the film because no one knew. I remember there was a... Everyone was very tight-lipped about it. We didn't know the plot at all. So, yeah, it wasn't an adaptation of the movie. It was my own original story. It was a little intimidating.

You know, I read these comics as a kid. I wasn't like a super, super, super nerd fan. My brother was but, of course, I do know who Black Panther was. And I think that was a little bit easier for me to write because if I had been a super, superfan, my fingers would have been trembling with so much, like, "Oh my god. This character is so iconic and well-known. How can I do this?" But since I had a little distance from it, I think it was a little bit easier for me. First, it felt like I was kind of writing fanfiction, you know, because Marvel's already built the world. There's Wakanda. There's the Black Panther. There's all these characters. I said, "What am I writing, fanfiction?" But then, once I put my own characters into it, then it felt like, "Okay. Now, this feels more like, you know, one of my stories once I added my own characters to it." It was a great experience. And the Marvel people are really cool, and helpful, and send you whatever you need, graphic novels, comic books, whatever. And these people are so... They know exactly everything in the world about these characters. They're like, "Oh, you can't do that because of Marvel issue number 14,1973, we had a storyline where..." I go, "Oh my god, how do they know that?"

Mary: That's their business, man. They have to.

Ronald: Right. Yes. So that first book was called "The Young Prince" and then last year, I got another contract for two more Black Panther books, "Spellbound," which comes out Tuesday, which was supposed to drop in September but pandemic, of course. And then, after that, I'm thinking November, the third book comes out called "Uprising." So, there will be a total of three Black Panther books.

Mary: So, I find this just endlessly interesting. Of course, we can't know what is driving Marvel and Disney behind the scenes but given what you're saying about how accurate they need to be in terms of the story bible, their existing universe, that they would just hand over free rein to create the story. I mean, did they say, for example, "Oh, he has to go to school in America. We have to sort of develop this different environment."

Ronald: No, it was wide open.

Mary: What?

Ronald: Yeah. And I think that's what they're doing with these prose novels. You know, Mackenzi Lee, she's done stuff. Mackenzi Lee has done "Loki" and some other properties. There's Squirrel Girl. There's a lot of Marvel prose novels out there, Disney Marvel. And, you know, what they do want to see is a synopsis beforehand, which kind of terrified me because I've never been a big synopsis writer.

Mary: Oh, there you pantsing guy, you're in a little bit of trouble.

Ronald: Right. Exactly. So, I said to my agent, "Can I just get them, like, a couple of paragraphs?" So, they would sign off on those few paragraphs but then, as I wrote, like, maybe 20, 30, 40 pages, I began to know more of the story, and then I could kind of write a full synopsis. But, yeah, it's kind of free rein. You know, if you're writing something that they don't think is gonna work or I've wanted to use certain characters, but they said why you can't use that character. There were no parameters, you know. So the first book called "The Young Prince," the first thing I wanted to do was get T'Challa out of Wakanda, young T'Challa, because to my thinking, you know, he's a prince. He's the son of the king and the queen, and his life is full of privilege, you know. He gets everything he wants, and he's probably got people following after him and bodyguards, and what happens when all that privilege is stripped away. So, I wanted him to come to Chicago, to the Southside of Chicago. So there's a threat in Wakanda. The Black Panther has to get him out of there. So hey, what better excuse to come to America and have this complete culture shock with a different kind of experience. So that was really fun for me to write him experiencing these things for the first time and learning about American history, and civil rights, and other things. So, yes, it's been a lot of fun.

Mary: Oh, that's amazing. I think that's just so interesting. So, when you turned this over, was there the kind of robust review?

Ronald: You mean from the Marvel team?

Mary: Yeah.

Ronald: Yeah, there always is. But I found my experience has been very, very good. I mean, you know, they've got some really, really great editors. First, it goes through the Disney folks. That's who my editor was. And then, the Marvel folks have their editors too. So, I kind of share with the Disney editor first on a draft-by-draft basis, and then it goes to Marvel and they kind of look at the big picture stuff. Yeah, it's been pretty cool. There hasn't been, you know, anything major that I've got to change. But, yeah, it's been really cool. That's all I can say.

Mary: And then, it looks like you're still weaving in some of your high-stakes mysteries and sort of creepy happenings. They go to Alabama in "Spellbound."

Ronald: Yeah, that was fun. So, in the first book, as we know, T'Challa, he meets some other middle-school friends named Sheila and Zeke. They become fast friends. In the second book, it's a year later, T'Challa comes to America again to visit his friends Zeke and Sheila. And Sheila's grandmother just happens to live in Alabama. I don't I'm gonna write about the South anymore, two Southern books. But it's a totally different experience this time, you know, it's present day. It's not the 1930s. So that was a lot of fun to get them in Alabama, the three of them. And, of course, you know, something has to happen. And they start seeing this mysterious character around town who's a very strange guy. He goes by the name of Bob. And if you're a Marvel fan, you might know who this Bob character is. Ultimately, they have to figure out what's going on. There's some hypnosis going on. There's an ancient book, a talisman involved, and the kids have to kind of figure out what this is all about. And it's another fun romp as they say.

Mary: So in a lot of this work, I want to go back to probably one of the first things that you've said during our time together, which is sort of these creepier elements, these scary elements, these unknown, mysterious elements, they are sort of a window through which we can explore things that are unknown within ourselves or our lives, things that we might be scared about or challenged by. How has that maybe been how you connect your character, and your plot, and your premise? So, I mean, is that sort of how you enter the stories and you grapple with some of these big-picture fears that you might have or that you believe each of your characters might be dealing with? Is it a way of sort of dealing with something in society, something darker, something more serious, but we wrap it up in fantasy so that it is more palatable?

Ronald: Yeah, sure. I mean, it's kind of allegory, I guess, in a way. As I'm writing these things, I'm not thinking of it in that way. I'm not thinking of this person is... And I don't think that's necessarily what you're asking but I don't think of this character standing for a certain, like, let's say there's a villain or something, I don't think of them as standing for one particular trait or type, you know. I think what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to find something that is gonna make, this sounds awful, that's gonna make kids scared, right, because, you know, some of them really like creepy books and some kids don't, you know. Like, when I'm at a book festival or something, sometimes, kids will come by and they'll grab all the books. And then, another one will come by to look and they go, "No, I don't think so," and then, they'll go. So, I want them to be engaged and feel the terror on the page, but also know that they're safe wherever they are, you know. They're just experiencing this as imagination, as fantasies. So, I think it's a way for kids to say, "Hey, there are fears in the world. There are things I'm afraid of. I can face these fears in this book. Maybe that could help me in my own life sometime." I don't know if that's going too far but I think that's what I'm trying to do, you know, other than just say, "Hey, I want to scare the heck out of these kids." I think we're doing it because hey, you know, the good guys usually do win in the books, right, in middle-grade books. So, it's about, you know, facing your fears, you know. Simon's afraid of aliens, you know. How is he going to get over that? Hoodoo's afraid of a stranger. How is he going to get over that, you know? So, I think kids look at these books and say, "Wow. If these characters find the strength within themselves to do these things, maybe I can too." I hope that's possibly what I'm contributing to the world.

Mary: I think there is this comfort to be derived from sort of safe fear or kind of vicariously going through these horrific things. I mean, people, and by people, I mean me, they look at things online. You know, they look at gore or they read these human-interest stories' gore.

Ronald: True crime.

Mary: True, yes, exactly. You took the words right out of my mouth with this fascination with serial killers, and psychopaths, and sociopaths, and all of these darker elements of human nature. I think, especially in the middle-grade space, kids come with all sorts of experiences and anxieties about their own lives and the bigger world. I mean, we're sort of living in a modern-day dystopia right now, and where do we put those feelings?

Ronald: Absolutely. Yeah, it is. It's so tough right now and I feel so bad, you know. I see the kids, you know, when they go outside of the school, when school was in session in certain states. But, you know, they're all masked up and they've got the 30-pound backpack on. I'm just going, "Oh my god, these poor kids" It's very scary right now, you know, for kids. And it's gonna be interesting to look back, you know, when we get through this and see what kind of books were being published and what the long-term effect has been on kids.

Mary: I think the reports coming out, like, the Surgeon General just released a report in November about kind of adverse outcomes from the various disparities that are really...light is being shed on, especially with kids, you know, not everybody has an intact family structure at home to support distance learning. For example, people work. Kids have to take care of their siblings, you know. Not everybody has access to broadband internet. And so, we're now living in a world that expects a lot of parents and of kids to sort of deal with this, but nobody has really equipped us.

Ronald: That's right. It's like, "Hey, we're going to be learning from home now." Okay, but this computer isn't very good. I don't have a very good, stable connection and I've got to go to work. There's just so much that has changed that young people have to deal with, so it's pretty overwhelming.

Mary: And kids who struggle not having their social supports that they see every day, those dynamics that are really, really, truly important to them, and also, kids who may be neurodivergent and don't have their IEP support. A lot of people are falling through the crack.

Ronald: Oh my god, yes, so many. I'm sure. And that's why I like going to schools so often to see kids, especially underfunded schools, to see their faces, to see what their expressions are like. You know, you can always find a kid who, you know, needs that extra boost, who needs that extra encouragement or whatever, you know, to do some of this school because it's virtually. It's fun but it's just not quite the same experience, you know, that they're getting. So, yeah, I hope we can get past it.

Mary: Has that really been a change for you in sort of your author outrage? Marketing, yes, of course, but just kind of the day-to-day stuff that you do to really engage with this particular demographic.

Ronald: Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, I guess, my fifth book, "Gloom Town" came out right around the time the pandemic was getting serious. And I had a whole bunch of stuff lined up, from my publisher and through The Author Village. And everything was canceled, you know, festivals, school visits, and stuff. And that was a real bummer because I like doing those things, and seeing readers, and seeing young kids who like my books. And they get a real kick out of meeting authors, especially in schools, you know. The teachers love it. The librarians love it. And, you know, we've been seeing all of these virtually now, from the biggest festivals to ALA just now, with the awards show. So it's just not quite... And I'm still a little paranoid, you know. I've had a few requests to travel and I'm like, "You know, not right now. Not with corona out here. I just don't feel safe enough to do it." Unfortunately, the youngest among us are the ones who are suffering the most, I'm sure.

Mary: And do you ever draw inspiration for character from kids that you've interacted with or stories that you've heard? Or is it more your own memories of being a kid? Or is it a hybrid?

Ronald: Yeah. I think it's my own memories really. In my family, there's a joke that I do not remember my childhood. Now, I think it's because we moved around so much. Really, Mary, I remember middle school but I don't remember much before that. I really don't. I don't know. Maybe the aliens did come...

Mary: Maybe the aliens did come. I was gonna say that for the end and ask you if they were real.

Ronald: You know, I don't know because we went to a new state every two years because my father was in the Air Force, and he would usually get a two-year stint or gig at a certain Air Force base. So, I have lived in Japan, in Michigan, Delaware, South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, Washington, D.C., Illinois, and they all just blur into one another. And I have this vague, like, little snapshots of certain places and schools. And my brother told me something not too long ago and I was, like, "I have no memory of that whatsoever." He was "Don't you remember those kids chased us home from school? One of them had a stick and he was waving it." "I do not remember that." Maybe, it was just too traumatic. Who knows? I don't know.

Mary: I wonder if there's something there about sort of otherness, this idea of being the perpetual new kid, the outsider, and confronting something paranormal, which you are inserting into these books or something other, is a way to sort of grapple with this otherness that I think, on some level or another, all middle-school kids face. There are other in their bodies, in their relationships, in their families, as they sort of start to see the good and the bad about their parents, their societies, their lives, their structures.

Ronald: I think you just struck on it. I will send you a check for a therapy session. I think you just got at the root of, yeah, being the other, being, you know, the new kid. Yeah, I think there was a lot. There was a lot of that, you know, learning, getting new friends, meeting new teachers, not feeling settled. Yeah, there's definitely a play in there somewhere. It's definitely there.

Mary: Because even in a fantasy, in middle grade, there is such a strong coming of age. I mean, we talked about it at the very beginning, you know, these sweet, coming-of-age stories. But that is such a heartbeat in any middle grade.

Ronald: Yeah, it is. You know, there's such a breadth of middle-grade books. "When You Reach Me," love that book...

Mary: Amazing.

Ronald: Yeah. "The Owls Have Come to Take Us Away" is the most contemporary type thing I've written, other than the alien angle, which isn't... I mean, it runs through the book, but there are not aliens on every page. It's really about this kid and what's going on in his head. And it's probably the most contemporary thing I've done, and I really like that book a lot. You know, you can get it [inaudible 00:45:02.639] St. Peters but you can with a book with monsters in it. You know, you can still raise those same questions in a contemporary novel as you could in a paranormal book. So maybe I should try something that's completely contemporary to try to strike that same, you know, fear, or doubt, or you know, catharsis that a reader kid might need.

Mary: Well, I was just about to ask, I mean, I was just about to ask about this idea of catharsis, this idea of overcoming, this idea of sort of the full-circle story of fear is that we either master it or we are mastered by it. Is that something that you try to... You know, we don't want to message outright in any books for kids because I think, kids are savvy customers and they will kick us right off the bookshelf if we try to kind of overtly message. But is it important for you to have that, the triumph over the fear?

Ronald: Yeah, I think so. You know, I think kids are probably getting so many messages from other media, whether comics, graphic novels, TV, where consequences are pretty dire and they're stand-in, you know, for 12 or 13-year-old in the story, this video game, this whatever, you know, doesn't make it out, doesn't get to be the hero or something terrible happens. So, I think that it is important to show that we can rise above these fears. You know, I think that's very important for writers for children's literature. I'm not saying that everything else will always need to be tied up in a bow. There can be loss, you know. Like in "Hoodoo," there are characters who die. And, you know, I remember, at a school visit once, a little kid said to me, "Oh, I cried when that character died." And it really hit me because, to me, it was like, "Yes, that's in the book and it felt hard to put it in." Sometimes, you know, kids read these books and, you know, we sit and write them on our own. And the characters and the events that happen feel real and I was like," Wow. That's a big responsibility to have a kid react that." You know what I'm trying to say? It's like we have to be careful with what we're doing and the messages we're sending because if you're going to do something like that, like kill off a character, there better be a good reason for it. And there has to be some type of lesson, but, like you said, without, you know, overly preaching about it. But, yeah, especially now, I think it's important for kids to find that hope at the end of a book, that the light will shine through somehow. It sounds cliche but, yeah, I think it's very important.

Mary: And is that something that changes when you are writing a hero, a superhero type of character? Was there something that...because, for me, the superhero media that we have, especially in the Marvel Universe that has sort of really overtaken our consciousness with the movies and all the properties now that are getting so much attention, is there something about telling a hero story that's different?

Ronald: I don't really think so because with T'Challa, you know, sure, he's the son of the Black Panther. But you know something, he's still 12 years old. He's still in middle school. He doesn't have the Black Panther outfit yet, you know. So, we have to make him realistic. We have to make him relatable to kids. Sure, he's gonna be a big superhero at some point, and you're gonna see his bravery over the course of these books and how he gets more and more confidence, but he's riddled with doubt and fear himself. He's wondering, you know, what would his father do in this situation, and "I'm not worthy enough to be on the throne someday. I'm afraid," you know. So, they'll see that hey, look, even the superhero kid has fears too. So, we can't just be all mighty and, you know, have no fears at all. So, yeah, I think it's important to show that even in a superhero book, our hero is going to be human. He's gonna have human faults, human frailties. He's gonna learn and grow just like the rest of us.

Mary: And there's something, I think, archetypal in any story like that. The full quote here is "And one day, I will wear the mantle." There's this pressure, in any coming-of-age story, of what I'm expected to be, what others expect from me, what I expect from myself.

Ronald: Right. Yeah, it's destiny, right. Like your whole life has been about this, this one destiny, this one moment, that you're gonna rise to a certain level as a human being and a superhero, but what occurred already for it? What would it be like to have that weight on your shoulders, to have all these expectations, and your father is a mighty superhero who fights with the Avengers and you're his son? What is that gonna be like, you know? So, I think, that's really interesting. It's been really fun to write young T'Challa and give it all those same hopes and fears that kids have. And, yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

Mary: So you have one more right now, as it stands, Black Panther book that will be coming out. That's probably in the can already. Are you working on another independent project?

Ronald: Yeah, after these two Black Panther books release, I have another book and it will be my first book with HarperCollins because my publisher, Houghton Mifflin, was bought by HarperCollins, right. So, I have my same editor. And this book won't come out till some time, probably early 2023 or something. It's called "Where the Black Flowers Bloom." Remember, early on, we talked about "The Lord of the Rings" and fantasy and stuff, so this is kind of an African-inspired fantasy, you know, about a young girl in a made up world. I wanted to use African myth, folklore, legend to create a story where a girl is the hero because we see, you know, for years and years and years and years, we've seen European history, you know, Celtic, Irish, Scottish, whatever, so, you know, Africa is a continent with many countries. And, you know, there's so many myths and folklore to pull from and we're seeing that more and more now with lots of books out. And I think that's great because that's still a drop in the bucket compared to what's come before so we can have kids in folktales, Nigerian, West African. There's so much to pull from. So "Where the Black Flowers Bloom" pulls from all of these regions, and beliefs, and folktales, and tries to create an original story that kids will really like.

Mary: So you found yourself ranging sort of all over the continent for various inspiration?

Ronald: Yes, indeed. Yeah, a big melting pot.

Mary: I did notice that your domain name was strangeblackflowers.com.

Ronald: Yeah, I don't know where I came up with that but several years later, I have a book coming out called "Where the Black Flowers Bloom," so it will be some good branding between the website and the book.

Mary: Marketing synergy.

Ronald: Yeah, yeah. I guess so.

Mary: I was gonna ask about that. And it's so strange that the title sort of dovetails.

Ronald: Yeah, I like the way they work. I like the way the words sounded together. You know, it's not really an alliterative but strange black flowers... I don't know. There was just something I liked about it and I just kept that domain, you know.

Mary: You're a writer. You like the sound of words.

Ronald: That's right.

Mary: It was all grist for the mill. Well, that is wonderful. I have really enjoyed sort of this more organic approach that you take. You don't go in there with a theme. You don't go in there, necessarily, with a takeaway or a very specific thing that you're working on.

Ronald: Yeah. You know, I have writer friends who can outline. They've got their note cards and they've got their big bulletin boards with 5,000 stickies on it. [inaudible 0:54:28.6] "Wow, I wish I could do that." You know, I don't find my way in until 100 pages, you know. And you've probably heard this before, Mary, but I say in schools, "You know, like George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones, says, there are two types of writers. There are gardeners and architects. And the architect, you know, knows the foundation, and knows the floors and the levels, and where this goes, where this beam goes. And there's the gardener who throws a seed here, throws a seed there. Something blooms over here. Something blooms over there. Sometimes, you have to backtrack and pick this up." And I think that's a cool metaphor for the way I write because I have to kind of discover the story as I'm writing it. And usually, when I'm maybe a third of the way into it, I can take a step back and then cut it through an outline or synopsis, say what happens after this, you know. Because you just can't write blindly forever. At some point, you have to know where it's going. But when I start, it's just pure kind of automatic writing imagination.

Mary: And what do you do at that point? So, you credit your membership in SCBWI, getting your critique group, those seem to have been sort of formative steps for you getting on this, like, more serious route to getting your agent, getting published. When do you pull in other feedback, other voices, if you do?

Ronald: Well, you know, when I was first starting out, maybe the first three books, I had a really good critique group for a long, long, long time, which kind of fell apart, you know, as these things do. You know, I still have one reader who's a friend who I share my work with. She's quite good. She has an agent, but she hasn't published yet. But, you know, I think I'm kind of confident enough now to say whether this is good or not, so I'll share stuff with my agent and she'll kind of take a look at it. There's not too much beta reading going on anymore, which I find interesting because I know a lot of authors do that. And that's great to get feedback. But, yeah, we all have different ways to go now. Once I get going with something, I kind of usually know whether it's gonna work or not. And I think I've been doing it well enough now that I kind of know whether something is good or bad. You know, I mean, there are only so many ways to write a novel. Well, people can always, you know, discard that and try new approaches to telling a story. But I think I kind of got it down to a place where I can kind of trust myself and my own inner voice to know whether something's working or not.

Mary: That's amazing. I have to say, I gave you a little pushback on the pantsing thing, in jest, but I love showcasing that you have been able to make this beautiful career for yourself just by being in your own imagination, a little creepy, a little, you know, atmospheric, but this is your process. And I think that showcasing that is going to make some of the listeners here very, very happy because this is their approach. They're in the car with the headlights kind of looking down the road, can't see everything but that doesn't mean it's an invalid or a bad way of doing it. It's just different and you've made it work.

Ronald: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. You know, my friend, I'm sure you and a lot of listeners might know Jeff Zentner's books. And he said that he wrote, I think, a lot of "The Serpent King," like, on his phone on his way to work on the bus or something like that, and there's just no one way to get stuff done, you know. And people who say they don't have time, I say, "Well, you got to make time, you know, if you want to be a writer."

Mary: Get up at 6 a.m.

Ronald: You got to take yourself seriously. If you don't take yourself seriously, no one else is going to read it. Your friends won't, your family won't. You know, back when the world was normal, in the before time, I would say, you know, that movie that you were gonna go to with your friends, well, you have to stay home and write because Wednesday is your writing night. So, you have to take it seriously. If you don't, no one else will read it.

Mary: Take yourself seriously. Give yourself that time, that space, that opportunity for who knows what to arise, right?

Ronald: Right. Exactly.

Mary: Well, thank you so much for your time, for your wisdom, for sharing your experience. This has been an interview with Ronald L. Smith. His current release will be Black Panther's "Spellbound," and I can't wait to see what you do next. This has truly been a pleasure.

Ronald: Thanks so much, Mary. It's been a lot of fun.

Mary: Thank you. And thank you all for listening. This is Mary Kole with "The Good Story Podcast." And here's to a good story.

Ronald: Ciao.

Mary: Thank you so much for tuning into The Good Story Podcast. My name is Mary Kole, and I want to extend my deepest gratitude to the Good Story Company team: Kristen Overman, Amy Wilson, Rhiannon Richardson, Joiya Morrison-Efemini, Kate London, Michal Leah, Jenna Van Roy, Kathy Martinolich, Len Cattan-Prugl, Rebecca Landesman, Steve Reiss, and Gigi Collins. Please check us out at goodstorycompany.com, and I would love it if you joined Good Story Learning, a monthly membership with new content added where you can learn everything you ever wanted to know and more about writing and publishing for writers of all categories and ability levels. Thanks again for listening. And here's to a good story.

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