New York Times Bestselling children's book author Tami Charles joins the Good Story Podcast to talk about experimenting with verse, amplifying the stories of girls of color, and writing what you feel.

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Podcast Transcript

Mary: Hello, this is Mary Kole and "The Good Story Podcast," good story. With me, you will hear from thought leaders related to writing, and sometimes not, about topics important to writers of all categories and ability levels. Here is to telling a good story.

Welcome, everyone, to "The Good Story Podcast." I am Mary Kole and with me, I am ecstatic to have Tami Charles who is just such a wonderful writer and not only that but a beautiful human being. And this is sort of a reunion for us to get together and do this, and I can't wait for Tami to tell you everything she's been up to because it has been a lot. Welcome, Tami.

Tami: Hi. Thank you so much for having me and it has been a lot. So yeah, my name is Tami Charles and I write books for humans, ages 0 and up. And I write in several genres. I write picture books, middle grade, nonfiction, and young adults. I'm even trying some new things. We'll see how that goes.

Mary: And what are sort of the highlights of your repertoire in terms of anything that you want to mention by title so that people can obviously find you and discover your beautiful work.

Tami: Oh, thank you. Some of my titles include "Muted" which is a YA verse novel, published with Scholastic Press. That's kind of like a nod to my teenage years when I was in a singing group, which was interesting. And before that, I published a picture book entitled "All Because You Matter," also with Scholastic. So yeah, they can find my books just about anywhere. "Like Vanessa" is another title which you know because that's how you and I got our start.

Mary: Yay!

Tami: Yay!

Mary: And "Like Vanessa" is a middle grade and we'll talk about this. Because I was, you know, kind of catching up on everything that you've been up to on your website and I had no idea about your singing group past, and so, one of the things I definitely wanted to ask you about is it seems like you have used different moments from your life, you know, growing up in Newark, you almost being in a girl group of some kind, you know, pulling from all of these experiences to create your fictional stories. So maybe, why don't we just start there? How has your own life informed your work?

Tami: It's been pretty much a guiding force through just about everything I've written. I've to tell you, before "Like Vanessa," which was my very first, you know, book that got any attention in the industry, before "Like Vanessa," I was writing a bunch of stories but they weren't really authentic. I felt like I had to write for other people. I felt like I had to write what, you know, I thought would make a sale and that really wasn't the right path for me. I had dinner with an editor, Carolyn Yoder, at Calkins Creek. I had won like some kind of auction through the SCBWI and my prize was to have a dinner and chat with this editor. And this was years ago. I was so excited to just be one-on-one with someone in the industry.

So she starts asking about my life and about my stories and honestly, by this point, I think she had read like one or two of my stories and they weren't that good. And then she stops me and she goes, "Wait. So what did you like at 13? Like what were you into? And I mentioned how, like at 13, I laughed about it, I was like, "Yeah, I did a pageant. It was funny." I'm going on about this pageant that I did at 13 and she goes, "Wait. Stop. Why aren't you writing about that?" And when I tell you, it was such a lightbulb for me, that aha moment of, "Yeah, why am I not writing about that? Why am I writing about zebras with polka dots or whatever it is? Like wait, let me pull from my own experience to create these stories." And once she said that, that really got me going. And I was off to the races. So all of my books feature some segments of my life, of my childhood, my teenage years.

Mary: So let me ask you this, were you always drawn to these categories for young readers because you come from a family of teachers, right? You are a teacher yourself. I did see on your website that your mom was actually not only a teacher-vice principal but then the principal of the school while you were there.

Tami: What good times.

Mary: Yeah, I went to middle school with the principal's son and he was such, I think it could go one of two ways, but he was such a little troublemaker. And it all seemed like he wanted to go see his dad in the office, like every day.

Tami: Oh, my gosh. You know, it was the opposite for me. My mom, she used to do this thing with her lips where she would just curl them up so that all I would see were like these two teeth. And in my mind, they looked like vampire teeth, so, yeah, there was no getting in trouble at her school. No way. Couldn't do it.

Mary: That's pretty amazing. So anyway, tangent but, so it seems like you have always drawn a material from your growing up and then, professionally, you wanted to work with kids. So was writing for kids just natural or do you have a specific reason that you're passionate about these age groups?

Tami: So, I think it was natural. I think the whole teaching thing was just in my DNA, which is funny because I didn't go to college to be a teacher. I thought I wanted to be a news reporter. And when that didn't work out... I didn't like the hours, truth be told. So I'm like I'm not waking up at 2 in the morning to go to work. But my mom, after graduating from college, she goes, "Listen. I'm gonna give you a year to find yourself. But in the meantime while you're finding yourself, you need to make some kind of money, so why don't you substitute teach which gives you lots of flexibility? You can work when you want and then just figure out where your life is going."

When I tell you from day 1 of substitute teaching, I became addicted. And I was like, "Oh, I like this." I loved the kids. I loved discovering books with them. It made me feel like a kid to discover, like, a wider array of diverse books that I definitely didn't read, didn't have growing up. And it was just like revisiting my 12-year-old self, you know, reading these books by like Tommy Alexander, and Jacqueline Woodson, Carole Boston Weatherford, Meg Medina. I'm like, where were they when I was growing up, like I would have loved this.

And that's how the whole dream of, you know, becoming an author was reignited, through my experiences of discovering these books with my students. And even they were like, "Hey, Ms. Charles, like, you should really think about becoming a published author," because we would write stories together or I would write stories and share it with them. And sometimes, we would write things and perform these stories like for the school, like act it out in plays and stuff. So I've just always been drawn to, you know, working with children, and, of course, writing for children. It just became a natural fit. But what I will say is that within that, like, I refuse to write just one category. I won't do that because, to me, I write as widely as I read. And I read all kinds of things so I want to write all kinds of things. Words are words. And I hope to reach people, despite their age, you know, with my words. So I think I'll always write for children but I'm definitely open to just writing for anyone. I would even try adult. I want to try all the things.

Mary: Yeah, I mean, it seems like you have successfully and there is, there can be, I found a little bit more crossover between, okay... You know, a picture book isn't that far from a chapter book, isn't that far from middle grade, you know. You have, not only sort of the external experience with a lot of kids, where, you know, you're teaching, you're in a classroom with these 12-year-olds or you're in a classroom, a kindergarten classroom, and you're gathering inspiration from all the different kids you might meet doing your school visits now. I actually looked and you have a huge calendar for 2021 which is the current year, you know, in terms of events and all of these interviews and things that you're doing. So you gather inspiration from them but it seems like you also have a lot of touchstones of yourself at various times in your coming of age period to draw from. Adult might be a little bit of a different...

Tami: Oh, it's a different animal. I'm dabbling right now.

Mary: You're not. You're having ideas. I mean, I don't want to put you on the spot.

Tami: I am dabbling right now. To be honest, I'm dabbling. It's hard. It's very hard. Kudos to those authors who do crossover. But like I said, I want to experiment. So, for me, it's not about ... My success there won't be measured by if I publish a book in that space. My success will be measured by just the effort of even trying, you know, to do it. So I'm flying, so I'm winning already.

Mary: There you go. I love that you keep challenging yourself. I think that's such a vital part of any writer's, sort of, trajectory forward. So going back to how you got started professionally as a writer, so you had this dinner, this SCBWI win. You had this lightbulb moment. So I love that one of the kids in your class was like, "Oh, you should just be a published author," as if it's that easy. You know, you just wake up one day and put on your author pajamas and that's how it works. So what was it like from that point on, when you started thinking a little bit more seriously about, "Okay. I love to do this. I have all this inspiration. Well, what's next?"

Tami: I want to say that dinner was like in 2008, maybe 2009, and, you know, I got to writing. I said, "Okay. Clearly, I have a day job so I have to figure this out around my day job." So I started waking up at the god-awful crack of dawn, at 4 in the morning, 4:30 in the morning, and I would write until about 7:30 and then I would go to school and teach. Sometimes, I would sneak in some writing during my lunch. Don't tell anyone, it's not smart. Doesn't matter now because I'm no longer teaching but yeah, I would probably get some in during lunch, usually with my students because they loved reading my work and marking it up with red pen. They thought that was funny.

Mary: Payback.

Tami: And then I would write again at night. So I did that from like 2008 to 2014. I made a schedule. I stuck with it. Lots of writing, lots of reading. I joined critique groups. Of course, I joined, you know, organizations like the SCBWI, where I can go to conferences and meet people in the industry. And, you know, one of my memorable moments, which is very full circle right now, is my first time meeting you, Mary Kole. You held a class in New York for, it wasn't SCBWI, it might have been like writer's something. It was in New York.

Mary: The Learning Annex?

Tami: Yes, The Learning Annex. I went to things like that just to see what is it, what is it going to take. I did all of that for about six years. And around 2013, was when I was like, "Okay. I got to really stop messing around and write what I know." I knew about pageants because I tried out at 13 and it was quite the experience. So I said, "Okay, I'm gonna write a story about a girl who does a pageant and there are certain people in her life who think that she doesn't stand a chance." So I wrote that story, workshopped it with my critique group, and once it got to a point where my group was like, "Tami, there's nothing else that we have to offer it," I knew that the next step was "Okay, let me hire or look into, like, an editorial consultant."

And that's how I rediscovered you because I knew you from that Learning Annex class and I said, "All right. Now, I'm gonna invest in myself and take this up a notch." And so I rediscovered you. We workshopped even more, the submission package, like 10 pages, the synopsis, the dreaded query, all of that. And then, even you were like, "Yeah, this is ready."

And after six years of, you know, hearing no so many times because I was submitting other stories, you know, it was just extra special to have this one be the story that got attention from several agents. And I remember you saying, "You're gonna get an agent and this is going to sell." And I remember not believing you. I'm like, "What does she know?" But, I mean, clearly, you knew and it worked out. So that's how I landed with Lara Perkins at Andrea Brown Literary.

Mary: The coolest, an amazing sweetheart, and I love her.

Tami: Yeah, she's just wonderful but, you know, once I got with her, it was like, okay, more editing. You know, as writers, you're just always editing. But yeah, that's how I got my start, just really workshopping it, investing in my craft, and then putting myself out there.

Mary: So I have to pause here and kind of point at two things for our listeners. And I have to say I have an editorial client and they are out in Hawaii so very, very far away in terms of time zones. And they scheduled a consultation. I called. I didn't realize because the number was not a Hawaii number, so I called them, like, you know, "Good morning." You know, haha, "What time is it there?" And they were like, "Oh, 4:30 in the morning." And I was like, "Oh, my gosh. You know, I screwed up the times. I feel so terrible. I'm sorry I woke you." And they were like, "No. This is my time actually. I wake up..." You know, I believe also in the teaching profession but "I wake up at 4:30 and then until 6:00 is my creative time." And this person has a family. This person has a job but they have this goal and they commit to it. And I often tell writers, you know, a daily writing goal or a daily writing schedule can, you know, feel very restrictive and set us up for failure, but it's important that you carve out time when you can, even if it's not every day. Just that commitment that you described and that... This client blew me away at 4:30 in the morning. You know, you couldn't pay me to get up at 4:30 in the morning.

Tami: I know all about it. That was my time. That was prime time for me.

Mary: Yeah, just that commitment to writing on your lunch break, writing in the morning when you don't maybe feel like it and you feel like staying in bed would be the better idea, writing in the evening. Just that commitment to yourself and to your education, going to these opportunities, applying for SCBWI grants, you know, auction dinners, even The Learning Annex. You know, all these opportunities you availed yourself and just like you said, invested in yourself. The second thing I want to point to is actually something you didn't say but that my perspective on our work together, you were this fiercely talented and still are, and I am going to put you in a spot here, fiercely talented person but one of the most humble writers I have ever talked to, who just legitimately seem to not know that she was sitting on a pile of gold.

Tami: Oh, I don't do well with compliments. Thank you.

Mary: That's okay. But the reason that I shared that is humility and just sort of your commitment to being like, "Look. I think I might have something here. I'm really not sure what do you make of this and what can I learn here." That has been... Just your attitude there impressed me so much, in terms of like, yes, this is the person that's gonna cross the finish line because she's not showing up and saying, you know, "Look at this gold that I have," you know. And I do see writers like that who sort of approach it from "I already know. I already know what I have. I already know how to write, you know. Just give me my rubber stamp because I want to move on to the big time. But despite your obvious talent and this amazing concept for "Like Vanessa," you were just, like, so down to earth and so receptive, very much wanting to learn even though you had taught yourself so much already. It couldn't have happened to a more amazing, just grounded, hardworking writer.

Tami: Oh, my goodness. Thank you.

Mary: But that's what I would point to in your, kind of, origin story. That's what I would point out to writers who are still looking for their break and working hard and learning. It's like Tami impressed me from the jump with everything that she was doing. And here you are now. I had to email an intermediary person to get on Tami's calendar. That is how you know you've made it.

Tami: Oh, gosh. Yeah. Sorry for all that.

Mary: No. You deserve it. You're writing, you're speaking, you're connecting directly to your readers. You're living the dream and you're still committing to challenging yourself, which I think is so phenomenal. You know, like, well, I've kind of climbed a couple of mountains. This is good. This is good. Now, I want to set myself up for yet another challenge in the form of potentially writing for adults. So you haven't stopped being that amazing woman that I met all those years ago.

Tami: Thank you. I think it also has a lot to do with I just don't want to get bored. You know, I think some writers just have, like, a niche. They have like this is what they're good at so like a lot of their books will center that. When it is my time to go and, you know, people look back on my work, they're probably going to be so confused. Like how is she talking about, you know, rape in poetry in one book, and then like, she's got another book about a girl who goes to ballerina class, you know, to be a ballerina. Yeah, so my work is all over the place. It's because my reading is all over the place.

I like books. I like words. Words are words. So I'm [inaudible 00:22:02.244] things and my repertoire might look a little crazy. But I hope that, you know, people who read my work will get it. I want to write for everyone so that's why you'll see, you know, the range of my stories.

Mary: And that's another thing that I harp endlessly on aspiring writers to read. I think there is just no better teacher, especially when you're, you know, still firing up on all your cylinders and you're doing your learning, I mean, care of people at the top of their game, so why not follow them.

Tami: Oh, I'm a strong believer in that. I follow the belief that I want to surround myself with people who are doing the thing that I want to do better than me. Like show me the people who are doing it and doing it way better than I am. I want a seat in that audience. I want to watch and I want to learn. And it's not because I want to copy that person. Like every person has their own path but it doesn't hurt to sit, and be inspired, and learn, and just pour that into yourself. It's going to look different. Success looks different on everyone, so yeah, I'm still grabbing seats in audiences for people who I truly admire.

Mary: So talk to me about this YA. Now, it does seem, given your picture books already out there, couple of middle grades, you had one other YA that sort of piggy-backed off of a character from "Like Vanessa." But this YA, your latest release seems quite different, quite a departure. Tell me a little bit more about the choice to write about maybe some darker things, the choice to write in verse. What was that like?

Tami: Oh, boy. Torture. Beautiful, beautiful torture. You know, sometimes, I feel like some of my stories are born from rejection, and this one is top of the heap. Lara and I had went on submission for a totally different project. I forget what it was, but it was, you know, many years ago. And the editor passed because this is par for the course in this industry, dear writers. The editor passed but said, "Hey, I just checked Tami's website and one of her fun facts was when she was a teenager, she was in an all-girl R&B singing group in the '90s. And she goes to Lara, "Now if Tami ever writes about that, I want to see it." So, of course, Lara was like, "Tami, you have to write a singing book. You know, get on it."

And at the time, I was like, "That's crazy. I don't have a story here. Yeah, I used to be in a singing group but like what would I even write about? Like, no, I'm not gonna do this." So I shelved that idea. And I feel like every few months, Lara would reach out and say, "You know, I really think you need to write this singing group book." And it's funny because I was working on a book at that time about a girl who wanted to be famous, broke away from her family to pursue this, you know, much to their dismay and disapproval, but she's gotten in all this trouble and she was on a plane ride going back home, after being gone for so many months, kind of retelling the story of how she was trying to be famous, got in trouble, and she's kind of apologizing to her parents along the way. But that story, it was titled something different, the main character's name was something different, but that shell was always there. I think I passed 60 pages of writing it. I had 60 pages of text and every time I picked it up, I just kept getting stuck so I kept shelving it. And then, of course, Lara kept bugging me, "Where's the singing story?"

And I started to see a lot of headlines pop up, you know, the Me Too movement. These horrible men in power, taking advantage of women and their talents and their expertise. And then some thoughts started to circulate and I was like, "Oh, wait a minute. This is rampant in the music industry and it's also rampant in the cultural circle in such a way that really isn't discussed. And I said, "Wait. Okay. Now, I think I can write this story because I was there. I saw some stuff. I've been through some stuff, you know. The difference is I came out unscathed, thank goodness. But what if I hadn't? What if I ran into one of these monsters who shall remain nameless? I don't think that these guys deserve their names to even be spoken. But what if I ran into one of these monsters? What if my singing group did? Ooh, what would that look like?"

So once I shifted my perspective, I picked up those 60 pages of just straight text, paragraphs, you know, that was like, you know, was dead. The story was dead, and I was like, "Oh, this is my singing group story." And because the main character was a singer-songwriter, I was like, "I can't write this in just straight paragraph format. I need [inaudible 0:28:31.9.] This has to be in verse. This has to feel like an album. It needs to feel like the actual roller coaster that is the music industry. Once I shifted my perspective, I was off to the races. I changed the name. I changed the title and then I really added some layers of my own life in there, you know, with the setting, and the fact that, you know, these are three girls. I was in a girl trio. So once I started pouring a bit of myself into the story, that's when I was ready. Lara was so happy when I said, "Okay..."

Mary: All that badgering paid off.

Tami: "Here's your singing group book."

Mary: Just fling the word file at her?

Tami: Yeah. It took a while for me to have that aha moment but I'm so glad that I tried because I definitely worked a different part of my writing muscle with the verse because I'd never done that before. I read a lot of verse and poetry but I'd never written in verse. So it was interesting.

Mary: So I don't know if anybody reached out to you but I immediately emailed to set up this interview in, I think, September when I saw the deal come through for "Muted." And what I really wanted to talk to you about at that time or maybe, I'm not sure if it was September, it might have been over the summer, but what I wanted to talk to you at the time was this element of reading and some things from the current cultural media, whatever conversation, and I saw that this kind of had hooked into the Me Too conversation that we were all having in its own way. And that's what I wanted to talk to you about initially but Scholastic was like, "No, we're not doing any interviews about this right now," you know. And I'm like, "Oh, man. She made it with this book."

Tami: They took the [inaudible 00:30:37.819] down. I was ready to talk about it but they were like, "Pump the breaks."

Mary: I know, I know. It's when the publisher steps in and has their own kind of marketing timeline, marketing plan where you're like "Hmm, good job." But, yeah, if you wouldn't mind answering that, so you took a piece from your life. You took a piece from a work in progress that wasn't working yet, probably because she was just sitting on the plane and thinking, right? You're like, "I need some action here."

Tami: There was no action. It was just filler. Sixty pages of filler, you know.

Mary: But, you know, it was a character in a moment in her life that was looking for a bigger hook and then I would imagine you looked at the news, you saw what was happening, kind of, in the entertainment industry and we're still having conversations about it, kind of the whole FreeBritney movement, right, and the Me Too movement, and you put all that together and out popped this idea. So what was it like to kind of feel like you were looping into a bigger conversation there?

Tami: You know, I could say that it felt amazing but I don't know how amazing it is to write a story about three girls whose power is basically taken away from them. Their talent was taken advantage of and, you know, these men, particularly the main character in this story, well, one of the main characters, Sean "Mercury" Ellis, you know, he's the man in power. And he had all the resources in the world to make a problem that he created go away. Was it amazing? You know, it was amazing to have the interest in the story and I'm forever grateful for that. That didn't make the process of writing it easier but I'm definitely grateful to have a book that adds to the conversation because in the greater scope of things, within the Me Too movement which was started by a black woman, Tarana Burke, I feel like sometimes, the issues that girls of color face in the workplace, especially in the entertainment and music industry, a lot of that is like glossed over.

So yeah, we see the FreeBritney and I feel terrible about that, and then we see things like, you know, what Kesha has gone through and what Taylor Swift has gone through. Those things are put in the media like Glass did. But oftentimes, girls of color, their stories are whispered. Their stories are avoided, and it's almost like their voices are taken away because we're not shouting as loudly for them as we are for the Britneys and the Taylors of the entertainment and music worlds. So yeah, it felt amazing but it also felt necessary. I'm just really grateful to have "Muted" within the conversation because there are other books out there that also shine a light. And I feel like, collectively, all of our books should, you know, be pushed to the forefront, should be joined in conversation with the same things that other artists are going through.

Mary: And that is something that you mentioned earlier in this conversation. And that you wanted to see wider representation on shelves and some of these writers like Jacqueline Woodson that you are reading and loving and the kids that you're teaching, kind of, you know, a generation younger, now get to enjoy more diverse voices on bookshelves, whereas when you were growing up, maybe you didn't see as much.

Tami: Oh, I definitely didn't see as much. And I try to emphasize that that doesn't mean that those stories weren't there, they were. I think access is a huge factor. Even though I went to school in the intercity, you know, I was educated there all my life, kind of grew up there too, access was also a factor. Why? Well, because the books that I guess top-down administration would put in our classrooms, they didn't feature kids that looked like me or my friends. These stories didn't take place in cities like Newark. These were stories about girls with their perfect homes, and their white picket fences, and their convertibles, driving off into the sunset. And their biggest problem might have been like their crush didn't like them back, like, "Oh no! My horse sprained its hoof." Yeah, so it's like, "Ah, yeah, my horse." Like I grew up in Newark. We didn't have horses.

So I was a voracious reader. I just didn't really identify with the kids that I was reading about. Didn't make me love those stories any less. I still do but man, I would have loved for a Jacqueline Woodson in my life at 10 years old. I would have loved that. And she's a legend to me so to even have a seat at that table, that's a real honor.

And I will always write diverse books because I have a diverse life. My hope is that when people see diverse books on the shelf, that they don't think, you know, if that person's not a person of color, I would hope that they wouldn't think, "Oh, I can't read that because I'm not brown or I'm not black." I experienced that personally at a book signing. It was like at a festival a couple of years back. This little girl, she was a white girl, she picked up "Definitely Daphne" and she was so excited. "Mommy, I want this." And her mom put the book down and said, "That's not for you." What? Like diverse books are for all kids. Let's get that right. Let's get that straight right away. It's for all kids. Like they are the ones that are going to take over this world and run this country. So they should be learning diversity as a normalcy, embracing it. And how do we do that? We do that through books, creating some kind of common understanding. Like we need more of that. So diverse books are for all kids and all readers. That's my two cents.

Mary: I mean, ideally, at some point with increasing representation in terms of published authors of color, giving you that seat at the table, that platform. One day, they could just be books rather than diverse books or, you know, this is a Me Too book. Like one of the faults in the way that books are marketed, as much and as wonderful as it is to have this movement to increase diverse representation of any kind, you know, from neurodivergent authors, from BIPOC writers, you know, at one point, we're still kind of just putting things into various buckets and various categories.

Tami: I'm with you on this, by the way. At some point, I would like it to just be books. I went to, like, an indie bookstore, which I won't say the name, but I went there, you know, hoping to see "All Because You Matter" because it had just published and I was so excited. I wanted to support, you know, my local indie. And I walked in. Okay, they didn't have the book. Okay, that's fine. Writers, that happens. Just because you publish a book, it doesn't mean it's going to be on every shelf at every store.

Mary: This is true. It is very true.

Tami: But the response from the, you know, store associate was, "Oh, we don't have that. Maybe we'll order a copy and put it in our race section." Well, like that was like, ooh, that burned, you know. You're gonna put it in your race section but you're only gonna get one copy. Like okay, thanks. Yeah, I would like to see, you know, it just be books.

Mary: Just normalizing wanting to peek into a different experience with a protagonist, wanting to display books from black writers, not just in February.

Tami: Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. And I have to say a little, you know, shameless promo here. Big shoutout to Target. Having them distribute "All Because You Matter" was a huge milestone in my career. And you know what, they didn't just do it for Black History Month. Like my book was included in the Christmas toy catalog, the holiday catalog.

Mary: Ooh, that's nice.

Tami: Oh, boy, I had so many people reach out because, of course, they mail out that catalog, you know, all across America, and people were hitting me up like, "Girl, you didn't hit the big time. You're in the [inaudible 00:40:58.044]." So like that was really cool. And when they did that, it wasn't just like, this is a black thing. No. This is a book for children that you might want to get for the holidays. And they also did Black History Month too, which was great. I just went to Target recently and you know what, it's May and it's still there. So that has been refreshing. I think more stores and more retailers need to follow suit, not just for me but, you know, for all writers of color. Like just get us in there and just make it normal.

Mary: I think the make it normal piece is the thing that I would love to see next. You know, I feel like we're in a conspicuous diversification process in publishing right now where it's like yes, you know, the demographics really, really matter when we're acquiring, when we're doing our marketing. Ideally, the pendulum kind of stops swinging and lands in this zone of it's a book. It's a book by humans. Other humans are in the book.

Tami: Yeah. And is it well-written? Because that's really all that should matter, right? I have a picture book called "Fearless Mary." It's published with Albert Whitman. And let me tell you, Lara and I had the hardest time selling that book.

Mary: Ooh, tell me. Tell me about that.

Tami: So "Fearless Mary," it's the story of the first woman of color to deliver mail in the United States in the 1800s when this was like a dangerous time, especially in the West, because thieves and wild animals like wolves would attack and rob stagecoach drivers. I mean, there was no Amazon so for you to get something delivered... And this wasn't a job for women. And it definitely wasn't a job for black women and God forbid if you were an ex-slave. No way were they even gonna give you a second look.

So Mary Fields showed up. She had everything against her. She was a woman. She was a black woman. She was a former slave. And they didn't want to give her a shot until she proved herself that she was better than like 40-some odd men, hitching up 6 horses, and hopping on there, and whipping everyone into shape to show that she was worthy. It was the hoops that she had to jump through just to prove her worthiness. I thought that that was a story worth being told for all children to learn about someone new, a pioneer in history, a literal settler of the West. Well, a lot of the feedback we got was, "Well, this was beautifully written but we've already reached our quota for, you know, black biographies." Or "This was really good but yeah, we never heard of her, so it's a no from us."

Mary: Well, that's the point, my friend.

Tami: That's the point, people. I'm just happy that Lara never gave up. Like she saw the promise, and I'm really grateful that Albert Whitman saw it too. And it was just like the little book that could. It earned out. You know, these are big wins. You told me, "No." I'm gonna keep going. I want to try anyway. And that's where I think publishing has a lot of work left to do.

Mary: And don't get me wrong. It's through this conspicuous phase where we become aware that publishing has a problem. We champion in the areas we haven't championed before and would sort of really make this push. It's through this kind of awkward phase where you hear horrible things about "Oh, our quota," you know. It's through this that we maybe reach that less self-conscious place where, you know, books can be books again, writers can be writers. But it's not perfect.

Tami: It's not perfect. I don't know what they wanted, maybe another book about Dr. King, you know, bless his soul. But we have so many books about Dr. King. Why not introduce children to lesser-known figures in history? Let's give these kids more options to write about when they have to do their Social Studies report. So that was my intention when writing that story like, "Wow!" And I was an adult and I never heard of this woman. She's fascinating. I want to write this story. But to hear back from publishing, "We hit our quota." Come on. There shouldn't be a quota on these types of things, especially if the writing is, you know, worthy of being published. So yeah, that's my little gripe with publishing. But I'm just gonna keep writing these stories and keep my fingers crossed that someone somewhere will like it and they'll be positively impacted. And if that's the case, my job is done.

Mary: So coming back to "Muted" and kind of hooking into, you know, not only are you writing, not only are you writing beautifully, not only are you writing to connect with readers but, you know, it seems like hooking into elements of the cultural conversation has brought a new dimension to books like "Muted," you know, hoping to talk to the issue of the Me Too movement, hoping to talk to the issue of, you know, entertainers of color and how maybe their play is a little bit different. Do you have other, I don't want to say points that you want to make, because first of all, it's not your job to make a point if you don't want to make a point, right? But are there other things that you see that you'd like to contribute positively to, in terms of other conversations going on?

Tami: Yes, I've got something for you.

Mary: Oh, no, I was asking an open-ended question. I didn't know that you had something [inaudible 00:47:41.918].

Tami: I've got some tea for you. Okay, so when I wrote "All Because You Matter," it was this tribute to my son to remind him that he comes from a legacy of resilient people, that he matters even if he may experience moments where he's made to feel that he doesn't. So it's so ironic how this book was published during two pandemics, right? We had the one pandemic which was COVID but then we had this other pandemic which really hasn't gone away, which is racism, injustice. Systemic racism and oppression against people of color marginalize people so to have those conversations going and to publish a book during this, that was a huge moment in my career but also in my personal life because it's opened a lot of conversations for my son and I.

It's created this safe space where, you know, he's 11 now. He's gonna stumble on things and I want him to know that if he stumbles on something, he can come to me and talk to me about it. For example, my son, my innocent child stumbled on... He was watching YouTube and you know how YouTube just like runs the next video? He was watching like anime or something and the very next video was George Floyd's death. He was by himself. He saw that. I'm sad that I wasn't there in that moment when he saw it but I'm glad that he came to me afterwards to ask me about it. "Hey, mom, who is this guy? Why did they do that to him?" So it opens up all of these conversations and when I tell you when that happens, I realize that I wasn't done saying what I had to say, that "All Because You Matter" needed a part 2.

And so, I got back to my roots, got back to poetry because my son had things on his mind. He had questions. But at the same time that this was going on on social media... Oh, gosh, social media can be a godsend but it can be a curse at the same time. But on social media, I started to see friends, actual people that I grew up with, older people who I respected and admired as role models in my life growing up, I started to see that they were posting some pretty hateful things about the protests that were going on, about Black Lives Matter, you know. They were posting some hateful things, calling these protesters, and I'm talking about peaceful protesters, by the way, that's my emphasis, calling them animals and thugs. And it made me think, well, first of all, it made me give them a huge side-eye like I deleted quite a few people. But it made me so sad and really upset about how is it that you don't see that this is not right. So you and I have another somewhat of a bond. You lost a child.

Mary: Yes.

Tami: I lost a child that... I feel like I'm publicly speaking about it now, but at the time, I definitely didn't want to talk about it. But it made me think, "Wow!" Her name was Grace, by the way. It made me think what would I tell Grace if she were here right now seeing all of this? Seeing these people who I thought were my friends degrading us as black people, what would I tell her? So part 2, I wrote. I won't say the title but I did write a second part. If part 1 is a love letter to my son, part 2 is all the things I would have said to Grace had she made it in this world because if she had seen what I saw, she would feel very bad about herself and her people. And I can't have that. I can't have children thinking that they are not worthy, thinking that they are animals and thugs. So I wasn't done and you'll be hearing more about that real soon.

Mary: Tami, I had no idea.

Tami: Yeah. Well, it's hard to talk about, you know. We all experience the loss of a child in different ways. Your experience was very different than mine. I don't even know how you're still standing. God bless you. You are thriving, you know. But it was different for me because I was very silent about it, you know. There is that stigma that comes with miscarriage and I just didn't want to talk about it, you know. I kept it locked away. I'm like, "I'm a strong black woman. I'm gonna keep going," you know. But writing that part 2 was the therapy that I didn't realize that I needed. So again, like, writers, you got to write what you know. You got to write what you feel. You have to write for you, first and foremost. And those who get it will get it. You'll reach the audience that it's intended to reach. So with part 2, I'm hoping that all people will get it and love it. But, you know, for those who don't, that's okay. I didn't write it for them. I wrote part 2 for the kids who need to hear it, that reminder of, you know, that arc of human history and all of the contributions that people of color, black people have made in this world, that all people today enjoy. So that's my job. It's to remind children, to lift them up. And hopefully, that message reaches readers of all ages and, you know, backgrounds too.

Mary: Oh, Tami, that is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard and I have been kind of like just wiping my eyes back here, muted, respectfully, because just this idea of using something so painful and turning it into something so beautiful, this vision that you have for the world and for your young readers who need to be reminded of their light and their common humanity, I can't believe that I'm hearing about this for the first time from you. And that you have managed to just make something so perfect, now that's something [inaudible 00:55:11.910].

Tami: Oh, thank you. Now, you got me teary-eyed. Yeah, it was a very rough time at this point last year because we were fairly new in the pandemic. You know, between my husband and I, we lost seven family members and loved ones to COVID.

Mary: Oh, my god.

Tami: Well, there was the George Floyd thing going on. There was the ugliness of the election and also, this book on the horizon, "All Because You Matter," it hadn't published yet but it was forthcoming. So I had all of that going and I honestly thought I would never write another book again because I was just in such a low place. But, you know, talk about turning pain into something impactful and something healing and beautiful, and that's what I tried to do with book 2. I'm like, you know what, this is my chance to revisit and rectify that loss. And let me write something that I would have wanted her to know if she was here today.

Mary: Oh, my god. Tami, I cannot tell you how much I admire you as a writer, as a person, as a mom, and you have rocked me with like the last five minutes of this chat here. But I just want to present Tami Charles again for your listening pleasure. Go out and buy every single book that she has written because she has so much to say, not only in terms of what it means to be a human being today, but also, her writing is sharp and funny, and so full of heart. I've loved talking to you and I just think you're such an inspiration to me personally, professionally. This is a writer to follow, who's doing it right and who can just speak to our collective experience right now.

Tami: Oh, thank you.

Mary: I'm sorry to put you on the spot, my goodness. But I have so much love for you and your work and thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me today.

Tami: This is a long time coming.

Mary: I think we made a pretty good job of it.

Tami: Yeah, I didn't expect the conversation to go there but...

Mary: Really?

Tami: Well, that's a little teaser to what, you know, I'm sure I'm going to be talking about that a lot more when it is time, you know, to start promoting and all that. It hasn't been announced yet.

Mary: What's the time frame for a potential release?

Tami: Next fall.

Mary: Next fall, okay.

Tami: Next fall, yeah. So that should be interesting, especially once I see the art, I might lose it then because, for the art, I was asked to turn in some baby pictures [crosstalk 00:58:35.779]

Mary: Oh, my goodness.

Tami: Of myself. Why? Because, you know, Grace, she's not here. The reimagining of her would be a little me. So, you know, in the first book... I know. So in book 1, it's me talking to my son. In book 2, it will be my husband talking to our daughter.

Mary: Oh, my god. Oh, my god.

Tami: Yeah, yeah.

Mary: What an amazing, gut-wrenching, amazing prospect to [crosstalk 0:59:19.9]

Tami: I'm gonna lose it. I already know I'm gonna lose it.

Mary: And see it and just think of what might have been but get to use her voice and hear the platform, oh, I'm gonna go cry now, after this. We're like limping across the finish line and I am probably gonna go cry.

Tami: Let me tell you when I first pitched the book, this is before I even had a word written, I pitched it to Lara and we were on video. And she was already crying.

Mary: Being a parent, it messes you up.

Tami: It's definitely something that draws us all together, you know, as adults who are parents, or even if you want to be a parent and you haven't gotten there yet. It's just that common experience in just knowing that deep love that we have for our children. It's transcendent. So yeah, I remember when I pitched it and she was just crying and she's like, "Yup, write it. Go for it." [crosstalk 01:00:30.557]

Mary: So one other thing that I'm thinking of and I'll, you know, end this on a publishing note, you know, we're talking about writing and publishing after all, not our deepest human, you know, like the things at the very, very bottom corner of our hearts, but one thing that I'm hearing in your story is that it really has sort of shaped how you picked your projects to have some feedback and to have, kind of, some of these insights from her as well.

Tami: Oh, oh gosh. Yeah. My agent, Lara Perkins, is a huge cheerleader. Like I feel like I can pitch her anything and she'd be like, "This is great. Write it." Well, obviously, you know, she has the expertise to know what's saleable. You know, for me as a writer, at this point, I'm not writing, you know, for what's saleable. I'm writing what's in my heart. You know, it's her job to figure out what about it can be saleable. How can we pitch it in a way that publishers would be interested? And, you know, sometimes, you write something and it's just so timely, and publishers are like, they're all grabbing for it. That's great.

You know, like I said, I just try to write widely. So yeah, I had these, kind of, serious stories, these issue-driven stories. And usually, when I write those stories, they do take a lot out of me emotionally but that's okay. This is why I write widely because if I do something like that, once I'm done, then I'm switching to, you know, the polka-dotted zebra, a fun story. Like I need a brain cleanse. You know, when I'm doing something so emotional like that, yeah, all right, so my next project will be something fun and light, just to mix it up. But, yeah, it helps having an agent who knows the market, an agent who's a cheerleader, and you know, someone who will give it to you straight, too, because she does that often.

Mary: She looks so sweet and she sounds so sweet. But every once in a while...

Tami: Oh, I call her gangster. I tell her, "Oh, please, why are you a gangster?" Because there have been a few times where we've sold something where we have interest from a publisher or from multiple publishers. And she's, you know, like a hunter. She works to get me the best deals possible and I'm grateful for that.

Mary: I mean, she's so sweet until she calls an auction. And then it's like, "Okay, everybody..."

Tami: Yeah, that's when she's... We've done a couple of auctions so far and I have gone into them, like, terrified because she asks for something or makes a request, and I'm like, "Oh, my god, They're gonna back out. They're not gonna want this anymore."

Mary: And she's like, "No. I got this. You just sit back."

Tami: You just sit there, you've done your part. I got it from here. So it's really great having, you know, someone on my team like that.

Mary: Tami, you are tremendous. I love you. I'm sorry it's been said in such a public forum.

Tami: No, listen. For me, this is where it all started. I didn't know I had a chance until I met you. And I mean that.

Mary: Oh, Tami.

Tami: I'm serious.

Mary: Oh, Tami, I'm so grateful that you came and set a time today. I am so sorry that we are bonded in certain ways that are very difficult, but I am so humbled that I played such a tiny, tiny role in your success. You are just incredible and thank you. Thank you so much for your time and for joining us.

Tami: Thank you, Mary.

Mary: This has been "The Good Story Podcast" and let's all go eat some ice cream and have a nice cry. And please investigate Tami Charles, all of her wonderful titles, most notably "Muted," out from Scholastic. And I cannot wait to see what else you do.

Tami: Thank you.

Mary: Thank you so much for listening. This has been "The Good Story Podcast" with your host, Mary Kole. I want to give a huge shoutout to everyone at the Good Story Company. You can find us online at goodstorycompany.com. The team is Amy Holland, Amy Wilson, Jenna Van Rooy, Kate Elsinger, Kathy Martinolich, Kristen Overman, Michal Leah, Rhiannon Richardson, and Steve Reiss. Also a shoutout to our Patreon supporters. And to everyone listening out there, here's to a good story.