Episode 17: Anna Staniszewski, Children's Author
On this month's episode, children's author Anna Staniszewski chats about her path to publication, writing for different age groups, and what it takes to make it as a full-time author.
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Transcript of Podcast episoDe 17: Interview with Anna Staniszewski, Children's Author
Mary: Hello, this is Mary Kole and the "Good Story Podcast," helping writers craft a good story. With me, you will hear from thought leaders related to writing, and sometimes not, about topics important to writers of all categories and ability levels. Here is to telling a good story.
Welcome to the "Good Story Podcast." My name is Mary Kole and with me today, I have wonderful children's book writer Anna Staniszewski. Thank you so much for joining me today. And why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself?
Anna: Sure, thanks for having me. I'm a children's book author like you said. I write picture books, chapter books and middle-grade novels. I, kind of, write a little bit of everything. I think what connect all of my stories is that they're either magical or funny or both. I feel like that's my way, kind of, into stories. And I'm also a writing instructor at Simmons University, an MFA Writing for Children Program there. And I'm on the board of The Writers' Loft, in Sherborn, Massachusetts, where we plan different writing events and their workshops and classes and things. So I feel like I do a little bit of everything in my life, just like I do a little bit of everything in my writing.
Mary: Oh, that's fantastic. So you are both a writer, a writing teacher. You have received an MFA. You teach in an MFA program. You have just approached it from all angles.
Anna: Yes. I guess so.
Mary: And what brought you to writing for children specifically?
Anna: So I didn't set out to write for children. In my undergrad, I focused on playwriting. That was, kind of, my background. And then I graduated from college, and I thought, "Well, I don't know that theater is what I really want to be doing, but I know I want to be writing." So I started writing what I thought were short stories for adults, and then at some point, a critique partner said to me, "You know, all your characters sound 13." And I thought, "Huh, that's interesting."
Right around that time, the Eric Carle Museum was opening in Amherst, Massachusetts, and I happened to get a job there, because I was trying to figure out what to do with myself after college. And when I was working there, I was just surrounded by people who were, you know, in love with children's books. And that rekindled my love for them too. And when I thought about the books that had meant most to me in my life, so many of them were ones that I had read when I was young. And I thought, "Hmm, maybe that's what I'm supposed to be doing. Maybe that's why all my characters sound 13."
And so I went back to school. I went to Simmons, in MFA and MA Children's Literature program there, just to learn how to do that. And it's funny because I actually...when I was in 5th grade, we had to write and illustrate a collection of short stories in my class, and in the bio in the back, which I found recently and I love showing it during school visits, it says, "When Anna Staniszewski grows up, she wants to be an author like Judy Blume and Beverly Cleary."
Mary: Oh, my goodness.
Anna: So when I was 10, I knew that I wanted to be a children's book writer. But when I became an adult, it took me a bit of while to get back to that.
Mary: What a treasure. I bet you just were bowled over when you found that.
Anna: Yes, definitely.
Mary: It's so funny because I was also a theater major and got a lot of playwriting training. I'm gonna go completely off of the questions that I sent you to prepare for this. Very helpful, right?
Anna: I think.
Mary: One thing that I think of when I think of theater is dialogue. And one of the things that you say as one of your hallmarks is humor, which comes a lot from dialogue. Do you think that was, in any way, inflected by your playwriting training?
Anna: Absolutely. You know, especially when I first started writing novels, it was like my characters were just standing around talking. There was no narration.
Mary: No scene setting. Because in a play, it's taken care of for you, right? You have a set, you have actors, why do you need to describe anything?
Anna: Right, exactly. So I really had to work on that element. But I feel like, yes, dialogue is still, I think, probably my favorite tool. There's so much dialogue in my scenes. I feel like that's, for me, how I figure out characters. If I'm trying to figure out relationship between characters, I just put two of them in a room, put them in a room and have them argue about something, and then I figure it out. I feel like that's still...my theater training is definitely still very, very strong even though it's been years since I actually wrote a play or, you know, was involved in a play.
Mary: Right. And I think with humor, dialogue is especially something that you really want to nail. Obviously, there's a lot of voice involved in dialogue, but it's not so much the narrative voice of, you know, these long descriptions of everything or the writing itself when it comes to imagery, I think humor is a lot in the dialogue and I think it's so interesting that you just put your characters in, basically, an empty room and let them, sort of, tell you who they are.
Anna: Yeah, definitely. Once I figure that out, then I add all the other stuff that you need for a novel.
Mary: I think a lot of my clients who have screenwriting training are a little bit in the same boat because the disciplines of playwriting and screenwriting have a little bit more in common than novel writing.
Anna: Yeah, definitely.
Mary: So I love that you worked at the Eric Carle Museum and, sort of, came back to your roots where you discovered your love of writing and specifically, your love of writing for children. That's what drew me to it initially as well. It's these books that you read early on, they just have so much power to make a real lasting effect on our reader who is reading very passionately. You know, you reach somebody in such a dynamic part of their lives.
Anna: Yeah, absolutely. There was an email that I got from a reader a couple of years ago, and she said, "I read one of your books and it made me talk to my dad about the problems we've been having with his new girlfriend, and I would have never done that if it wasn't for your book." I was just blown away because, you know, you think you're writing, like, a story and it's funny and yes, there's some deeper things in it, but I had no idea that it would actually inspire someone to, like, you know, try to fix her relationship with her father. I thought that was amazing.
Mary: That is amazing. What a treasure. You just keep hitting on these wonderful jewels that come to you. I think that's so cool that you have this story and you think, "Oh, it's just, you know, this fun thing that I've written," but it's out there making a difference. So you decide to make it official. You got writing training at Simmons. How did that impact the writing that you were already doing?
Anna: Since I teach in an MFA program, a lot of times, people ask me, "Do you need an MFA to be published?" And the answer, I think, is no. But you do need to put in the work. And so I think what Simmons really taught me was it gave me structure, it made me do the work. It taught me all that I needed to know, that I would have had to learn on my own, if I wasn't there. And I think, more than that, it gave me a very, you know, much needed community of fellow writers and children's book people, and I feel like that's been so crucial since I set out to get published, not only just for the moral support, but the fact that now, I have the, sort of, connections out in the industry and people that I can commiserate with and all that. So I think that I didn't even realize how much I needed that community until I was querying and then I was out of submission with my first book, and then to just kind of... I mean, I've been doing this for... My first book came out almost 10 years ago, so I feel like there's been some ups and downs and it's just been huge to have that community built in.
Mary: Yeah, that's instrumental for a lot of writers, because writing can be pretty lonely. We were just, before we started recording and talking about our home offices, and working from home and just being in your own little world. And with a program, a workshop, an MFA program, anything like the class environment that you do with the Loft, you bring other writers into it. And not only is that good for the writing craft, but it's also good for the writer's soul.
Anna: Definitely, yeah. I think you don't realize how lonely it can be until you do find that community and you think, "Wow, this would have been nice a year ago, or 10 years ago."
Mary: So I have a bunch of questions about your work itself. But I would actually love to, sort of, hear about this period between that end...from the sound of it and please correct me if I'm getting anything wrong, but the end of your MFA experience, and your, sort of, submission, getting an agent, maybe getting your first book deal experience. Can you talk us through a little bit of what that was like?
Anna: Yeah, absolutely. So it was not a straight path, because I think it rarely is.
Mary: True.
Anna: When I finished the MFA program, I had been...I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do with myself. I knew, like, okay, I need to be writing, but I was very lucky in that, in my final semester at Simmons, I applied to the Writer-in-Residence program at the Boston Public Library, and I was chosen as the Writer-in-Residence for the following year. So right out of grad school, to have that opportunity, where they give you a space and they pay you to write a book was amazing.
Mary: Amazing. That is so cool.
Anna: And so I went into that, and that, I think, was when I started to be, like, wow, I really do feel like a writer, like maybe this really could be a job. So I spent a year working on a project, and that book actually never got published. But that experience opened so many doors for me. I had new connections through that and then I was able... When I started querying that book, I got so many really encouraging rejections that made me think, "Okay, maybe this is not the project, but maybe the next will be." And so I just kept querying and working on new things, and eventually...
It's funny, I spent a year querying and getting lots and lots of very nice rejections, and then I happened to be working on... You know, I worked on a new project, and I submitted that to what was then called the PEN New England Discovery Award. It's now the Susan Bloom Discovery Award. And that was one of the winners that year. So that was such a nice thing to be able to put in my query letter. "Guess what? This book just won an award." At the award ceremony, actually, the reception, this agent came up to me afterwards and she said, "You know, I'm looking for new clients. If you're querying, then feel free to contact me." I was like, "Oh, yeah, I might be looking for an agent." You know, trying to be...
Mary: Very casual.
Anna: Yeah. And so I sent her the manuscript and it was funny because I had been querying for a year and getting a lot of rejections, and then she loved the manuscript and wanted to represent me, and another agent did at the same time, someone who I just, you know, cold-queried. And so, it was like after a year of nos, then I got to reject somebody, which was nice. So that became my agent, who's still my agent, Ammi-Joan Paquette at the Erin Murphy Agency.
And then when we were on submission with that project that had won that award. We were on submission for that for a year and it came very, very close, but it didn't fell. But, luckily, I kept working on new things. And I think that that's ultimately the lesson that I took away from that whole process, that you always have to keep working on the next thing, because you just never know. The worst thing you can do is sit around and wait. I'm a bit of a control freak, so I thought like, "Well, this is all I can control, is what I'm working on." And so I was, you know, just working on that, and that was the part. So it was really like my fourth novel that I wrote that got published.
I tell all, you know, my students, when I do school visits, I mention that, you know, that you just have to be working on the next thing because you never know and just focus on what you could control.
Mary: I think that's fantastic. And I mean, all self-deprecating humor aside, there's such an amazing point buried in here, which is that you really don't know what is going to happen outside of you, what agents are looking for, what the market is doing. All you can do is keep writing. And if something doesn't work or something comes close and it's just not quite landing, instead of...
So two sides to that. Obviously, you want to believe in yourself. You want to believe in the projects that you're working on. You want to keep working on them and learn how to revise and all of these things. But, at the same time, the writers that I see who are consistently successful and are able to grow their careers, they don't cling when something isn't working. They start on the next idea. They move in a different direction. They put something aside and work on something else. Just the idea that there's only one project out there for a writer and, you know, you query it for 10 years, that type of writer and that approach, I found to be less successful.
Anna: Yeah, I found that too. At this point, I've been teaching at an MFA program for over 10 years, and when I tell my students... The people who succeed are not necessarily ones who had the most talent, or, you know, they're just the ones that just keep trying, they just don't give up. And yeah, whether that's continuing to work on projects, but like I always tell them, like, it's sometimes, the best thing you can do is start something new and see where it takes you. And I agree. I mean, not that you give up on things, necessarily. If you feel like your heart isn't something, then sure, like, got back, keep working on it. But also keep working on something new, because I feel like that way... I think it helps you grow as a writer, and then it also helps your chances if you do want to get published, if that's your goal.
Mary: So here's the thing, I think that some people are just yes, naturally talented, it's this amazing thing. At the same time, going back to this lesson that I learned, actually, in my theater program, there were a couple of people who were just phenomenal, you could watch them all day long. They had been touched with this incredible talent. But they tended, and I'm making broad generalizations obviously here, they tended not to work as hard because they didn't have to. They were already at 80%, right?
But seeing what has happened to the people that I thought were immensely talented in the theater program, whereas some people were more, kind of, just right in the middle, those people have tended to have the lasting careers in the art scenes that they've been participating in, and I think it's because they had to work, and they had to work consistently, and they had to keep auditioning, and they had to hone their skills, and they had to learn their craft and they had to realy keep going and persevering, whereas some of the people that I thought were just natively talented have dropped off the map, maybe because some of the people who had a little bit more hustle, who were a little bit more motivated to keep going and keep learning and keep working and keep putting themselves out there have left the people who maybe leaned back and tried to rely entirely on talent.
I mean, a lot of writers get down on themselves by thinking, you know, "Oh, look at this person and this person, they're so talented, I don't feel that I'm talented." Well, that's just one ingredient, and it's also completely workable. By working on your craft, you can move that talent needle.
Anna: Absolutely. And I think maybe the biggest lesson that I've learned, after doing this for a while, is that there's always more you could learn. And so, you know, I feel like the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know, and so that is motivating to me. You know, it keeps pushing me to learn more and do better. And I think if you feel like, "You know, I pretty much got this thing," you know, at that point, like, why even bother continuing, because if you feel like you've figured it all out and you're, kind of, done learning, then I feel like that motivation to explore and, you know, investigate, like writers do, is just, kind of, gone.
Mary: Wise, wise words. And I don't think that there is a destination. I think human beings tend to put this fallacy on any creative pursuit and be like, oh, okay, well, there's obviously an end goal. It's getting an agent. Or there's obviously an end goal, it's getting a publisher. There's obviously an end goal, having my book option for film. But with the writing craft, even when you hit some of those benchmarks that you set out for yourself, I think that there's just no end in sight to learning the writing craft and being on the writing journey.
Anna: Yeah, I agree. I used to be one of the people that I thought, "Well, if only I get an agent, I can get my first book published, that will be enough. I'll be satisfied." And then that happened and that was amazing, and then I thought, "Okay, well, what's next?" And so you're always moving the goal post.
Mary: Yes.
Anna: I think that can be a good thing, I mean, as long as you remember to give yourself credit for the things you have accomplished, because you don't want to be discouraged, that, oh, I thought I would be done, but I'm not done. I mean, I think it's, kind of, nice to know that there's still things that you're striving for, still goals that you have because that means this is now your career. It's not just a one-off. It's something you're cultivating over a long period of time.
Mary: I think that's just a human nature. That's just something that we all need a little bit more practice with is being able to be grateful for what we've achieved, but striving for the next thing. So speaking of which, you have been a working writer for quite a while now. One of the things that I found remarkable about your story is that you seem really good at finding opportunities to get recognition, to get support for works in progress, like the Writer-in-Residence program at the Boston Public Library, and these awards that you've applied for. I think that's a wonderful thing for any writer to, sort of, investigate, in addition to the writing training that they're doing. Any support, any validation you can get along the way is a really nice thing.
Anna: Absolutely. And I think, if nothing else, applying for things like that gives you deadlines. I think that's pretty much why I did it, never thinking I would actually receive any of those things, but it just was like, "Well, this is a motivating deadline. I can finish this manuscript by this time. I can put this proposal together by this time." And then if you get something out of it, that's bonus.
I've had a lot of former students and also writing friends who have applied for similar things. And maybe you don't get the prize or the award, but maybe you make a connection from that anyway. Like the judges really like your piece and they remember you, and maybe one of those judges is an agent who says, "Oh, send this to me when it's done." Things like that. So I feel like as long as you do your research, to make sure it's not a scam or anything, I think those kinds of opportunities are really important and they can be really motivating.
Mary: So flash forward in time, you have picture books, chapter books. You have standalones, you have series, you have middle grade. What drew you to each category and, sort of, how did it start and then how did you branch out? So two-part question.
Anna: Okay. So I think middle grade is definitely my natural voice and format. Like I mentioned, all my characters sound 13. That is just my natural voice. And so for me, writing, like, a 40,000-word upper middle grade novel is...especially when that's kind of funny, drawing on deeper themes and topics, but told in a funny way and maybe a little bit of magic, I feel like those are the kinds of stories that I really enjoy reading. I've enjoyed them since I was young. And so I feel like I'm most drawn to that. And that to me feels, this is a silly word, but easiest, not that it's easy, but it just feels the most natural for me.
But every once in a while, I get an idea for a picture book, and I think, "Oh, that would be so fun to write." The picture books for me are so, so much harder than novels. I think, for me, for picture books, I come up with a concept...usually it's a title that I come up with. Like I had, one of my picture books, "Dogosaurus Rex," I was talking to my dog, I called her "Dogosaurus Rex," and then I was like...I was walking her thinking, "What would that be about, like what would a Dogosaurus Rex be?" And I finally came up with the idea of being a boy who adopts a dog and doesn't realize it's a dinosaur. But it took me, probably about a year to get to that place, from the time that I had that title and that initial idea to then figure out, okay, what do I do with this. I feel, for picture books, it takes me longer to figure that out, just, kind of, what that story really needs to be.
Chapter books are my most recent endeavor, and I have fallen in love with them. I think it's because it, sort of, feels like the perfect blend of the plotting that you need for novels and then the concise language that you need for picture books. They're just such a fun challenge to me. I've really enjoyed working on them. And especially, my “Once Upon a Fairy Tale” series with Scholastic, they're a series of fairy tale mysteries. So using that, so then it's been so fun, also to just working that mystery on it, where there's really tight plotting that's involved, which I don't do for my novels.
For my novels, I write out like a synopsis with the overall, kind of, emotional and physical turning points in this. You know, I might make a beat sheet for it, but I don't outline chapter by chapter. So I found that for chapter books, I actually have to be much more structured about planning out the story. That's been really fun too. It's been very different for me, and i don't know that it would work as well with my longer projects, but it's been a very different and satisfying technique that I've had to use for chapter books.
Mary: That's really interesting, and I love this, sort of, idea that they're a blend of, you know, the more complex plotting that you're able to achieve with a novel, but the language and, sort of, the brevity that you have to aim for with picture book. I don't think I've ever quite heard anybody describe chapter books in that way.
Anna: Yeah, I'm, kind of, hooked on chapter books at this point. I feel like, "Okay, what else can I do?" I'm actually working on a Work for Hire chapter book series right now, and once that's done, I'm like, "Okay, what's gonna be my next chapter book idea," because I just enjoy writing them so much.
Mary: Because they do have to pack a lot of lot of plot into every chapter. Every chapter has to move the story forward even more so than with the novel, but you don't have the word count to really... Not that it's advisable at any point for any age group to fill your book with fluff, but you really have to plot in a very lean way for chapter book.
Anna: Definitely. I feel like working on chapter books has made my longer novels more concise. I feel like I...now that I'm used to thinking, "Well, how can I say this in a better way? Like how can I pare things down to really get to the essence of them?" I feel like I've been doing that much more in my novels as well. It's already something that I try to do, but now, I'm even more aware of it.
Mary: So chapter books, though, they weren't your entry into the market. And I still feel like it can be pretty tough to debut with chapter books. Is this an idea that you and your agent cooked up or did it come out of, sort of, your... I notice you have a long relationship with Scholastic, for example. Is it something that they approached you with?
Anna: So with the chapter books series, yeah, I had already had one book, one middle-grade novel published with Scholastic and then I had an idea for a fairy tale mystery series. And I approached my agent with it. I said, "What do you think we could do with this, because I think it would be really good for my editor for Scholastic?" She said, "I agree with you." Because I already had that relationship with my editor at Scholastic, I think that helped. But it took her a little while to figure out the best home for it, because we were trying to figure out the length of it. So it wound up being published by Scholastic Branches. So those are very structured in terms of length and number of chapters and things like that.
So my first, kind of, manuscript was...my initial manuscript was a little too long for Branches, but it just seemed like such a good fit in terms of the kinds of books that they publish, so I just wind up having to cut 2,000 words, which doesn't sound like a lot, but when your manuscript is 8,000, taking out 2,000, that's a lot. But it wound up being a perfect fit. And I actually really enjoyed having that 6,000-word limit. It made me just...I just felt like it just tightened the story even more and made it feel even more, kind of, satisfying, I think, for my perspective and making sure that everything that happened, everything that was in it needed to be there.
Mary: And so I think that's a really good message for the early reader chapter book writers out there listening, that a lot of publishers actually have more stringent guidelines for what they like to see in these categories. And so there's probably more collaboration, more back and forth involved in trying to make a project for one of these imprints, for these ages.
Anna: Yeah, definitely. I did find the process of creating a chapter book was so much more hands on. There was a lot more back and forth than I was used to with writing longer novels, just because then you're working in illustrations and making sure there's... I mean, in a way, they have to be even more consistent than picture books, because, you know, you're still thinking about the emerging reader, and the last thing you want to do is confuse them when they're still, kind of, getting a handle on, you know, reading. So you have to be really, really careful that everything is exactly right, and that it matches up and so yeah, it was a lot of back and forth, and it was actually...it was fun. I enjoyed it. It was a very painstaking process, but I thought it was a lot of fun.
Mary: So you have, sort of, your wheelhouse is middle grade and you have standalone middle grade, you have series middle grade. And it seems like one of your hallmarks is also working in a little bit of fantasy, a little bit of a twist on a fairy tale, a little bit of magic, like you've said. What is that about and why do think that sparks your imagination?
Anna: Hmm, I think I've always been fascinated by this idea of bringing a little bit of fantasy into the real world. I know that even when I was young, those are my favorite kinds of stories to read. And I think there's just so much possibility there that it's just like you add in one little thing that turns everything upside down. And so yeah, I think even my realistic fiction, there's a little bit of a fairy tale element to them, just because they're very exaggerated, because that's a lot where the humor comes from. And even my newest novel, "The Wonder of Wildflowers," which is probably one of my more serious books and definitely my most personal. So it's about a girl who immigrates to a new country where she doesn't speak the language, she's trying to fit in, but also this new country that she lives is the only one in the world that has magic.
Mary: Oh, interesting.
Anna: So that was really fun for me. It's basically magical realism. It was fun for me because I'm also an immigrant. My family came to the U.S. when I was in elementary school. And so it was really interesting for me to, kind of, draw in some of these personal experiences and work them into the story, but also thenplay around with the magical element. That magic part, that allowed me to access that story without it being my story. It allowed me to make it somebody else's story, make it about somebody else in this whole other world.
So I think that that's part of it as well, that I don't find writing about myself and my own personal experiences that interesting. But I feel like I'm always writing about them, those emotions, and some of those experiences, but in a way, it's transformed if I can make it funny or if I can make it magical or both.
Mary: I think that's really interesting, because right now, there is a great interest in, you know, telling stories of lived experience. And this immigration experience that you had when you were a young child, I would imagine, was a huge, huge event in your life. But I think it's interesting that you don't seem as motivated to write a memoir about your childhood immigration experience, sort of, as you. You have drawn on that experience, put it in a different character and added a magical realism twist to it, and you seem to be saying that that almost made it easier to tell a story inspired by your very own real experience.
Anna: Definitely. I think with...For years, people would actually ask me, "Why don't you write a book about being an immigrant?" And I thought, "Well, there's so many wonderful books about that already out there. What can I possibly add to the conversation?" But then, one time, I was having this discussion with somebody and I said, "I mean, unless there was magic in it, then maybe I could write that story." And then there was like, ding, ding, ding. Oh, okay, if I add magic to it, then I can tell that story, because then, it wasn't mine anymore. It wasn't about me. It was about the character.
I actually have seen that with my students, and also in my writing groups, that sometimes, if you write about yourself, if it's too much about what really happened, then there's almost not enough structure and plot to make it feel satisfying and realistic. And so I think, you know, that I often suggest adding another element, whether that's a subplot that didn't actually happen to you or some other element that can help you take a step back from it, so that you can see it a little bit more objectively and think about what would work for the story and not be so concerned about what really happened. I think that just gives you a little bit distance from it.
And then I think it also makes it easier to tell it as a story rather than as your memories, which I think if you...because at that point, you're writing a memoir, but if you're trying to write, you know, a novel, then I think you need to take yourself out of it, at least to some degree.
Mary: I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree with you a thousand percent. Because writers do often get stuck on this adage of "write what you know." Then they're like, "Well, you know, I haven't really, you know, experienced this much, or done this, done that, so it can be limiting," but when I work with memoir writers, I feel like if they are taking "write what you know" too literally, or fiction writers who are using life events to inspire a fiction story, they're really constrained by their experiences.
And so I try to ask some questions, you know, like, "Well, what if this happened? Or what if we can combine these two characters? What if X, Y, Z?" And they have to get over this obstacle. You know, obviously, in memoir, you want to skew closer to what actually happened, your best recollection of events, but it can really be limiting because then people push back and they say, "Well, that's not what really happened. You know, that's not how it happened. Oh, I couldn't possibly combine these two teachers who are playing the exact same role in this story." But you kinda have to, especially if you fictionalize it, you have to break it open. And I think that idea of distance is really important. Give that distance to yourself before you can really tell it as a story.
Anna: Absolutely. And I think also, this is probably like a wider thing about writing that I often think about is just the need to be flexible. I think if you get too set in stone about anything, whether it's in your writing or really, in your career, I think then, it doesn't...it keeps you from moving forward. So I feel like that flexibility is so important in your writing. I mean there are things that, if you're working on a project, you know, they're kind of from your heart and you know they need to be there. Okay, keep them and figure out a way to make them work. But I feel like everything else should be negotiable, like there's things that you're always willing to change and rework, if it's going to make the story better.
Mary: Of course. Of course, you want to, sort of, stick by your integrity, what inspired the project, your vision for the project. And obviously, this is spoken by an editor, I suggest changes that writers can make that, in my eye, will make the project stronger every day, right?
Anna: Right.
Mary: So I have a vested interest in this idea of flexibility, but I actually...I had a sticker printed that has so far only been a joke internally with Good Story Company, but it says, "Don't be effing precious," except not effing. But, sort of, going back to what we were saying at the very beginning of this interview, you know, it's the writers who cling to the one project or the writers who cling to one version of events or the writers who are inflexible that I just, over the years, I've seen it over and over again, they tend to do less well than writers who can break their minds open a little bit, break their imaginations open, be a little bit more flexible and not as effing precious.
Anna: Exactly.
Mary: So I wanted to ask, on the craft side, and them I'm really curious to talk about your teaching experience. But on the craft side, how do you approach, if you approach it differently, your series work from your standalone work?
Anna: Hmm. I think in a lot of ways, the process is the same. You know, even if I'm writing a series, I still try to make the books stand on its own. So I ultimately think about the overall change that needs to happen with the character, you know, the themes that I'm working with, all of that. And I think in a series, I just make sure that those things are different for each book, so it doesn't feel like I'm telling the same story over and over. So if I know I'm gonna be writing three stories, three books about a character, I think, "Okay, well, how will my character change in different ways in each of the books? What's the big thing? Okay, yes, maybe she's learned a little bit in Book 1, great. She's in better shape in Book 2, but there's still something she needs to figure out. And then making sure that Book 3 is a different emotional journey." I make sure that those are distinct.
Then I think I tend to have a tendency to try to cram too much into early drafts of novels. So I think writing a series gives me a chance to explore those ideas further. I can kind of slow things down, and things that I might have had to cut in a standalone. I do feel like in the standalones, I tend to have to focus more, where I have to just cut some of the scope and say, "No, don't worry about what's happening in the rest of the world. Worry about what's happening in this town, or worry about just what's happening in the school, or maybe just in this classroom." Just really narrow that focus so that I'm not getting distracted by all of these other possibilities that I could explore, potentially, in a series.
Mary: So how do you make that determination? Is it whichever subplots, whichever conflicts bolster the theme or the character's journey? How do you draw the line?
Anna: Yes, definitely. So I try to really get it back to the theme. I try not to use the word "theme" too much because I feel like people get, like, flashbacks to high school English class, where they're, like, writing papers about mountains or something, and that's not the kind of theme that I mean. I mean, like an emotional theme, so I try to call it, like, an emotional heart of the story or an emotional theme, but something that has emotional weight to it. So something like friendship or loneliness, something that already has, you know, that already makes us feel a certain way.
And so I make sure that when I'm looking at a story and deciding what to keep and what to take out, I go back to that emotional theme, and I think, "Okay, if I'm writing about belonging, which subplots are connected to this idea of belonging and are showing it in a different way, and which ones are repeating what I've already done? Okay, if they're both saying the same thing about the idea of belonging, then one of them needs to go or I need to change it." And if there's some element in it that doesn't really work with that theme and if I took it out, it doesn't really change the trajectory of the story, then it doesn't need to be there.
So I try to really boil it down to the essence of that story and think about, okay, what is serving that essence. And anything else that's not, I either have to rework it so that it does connect or maybe it just actually doesn't need to be in the story at all.
Mary: And what about for a series? How much do you resolve per book that is intended to continue?
Anna: Oh, that's a good question. It really depends on the overall structure of the story. So if I'm writing a chapter book series, the Once Upon a Fairy Tale series, yes, they come in order, but they're meant to be read, you know, out of order. And so for that series, I actually, kind of, do the opposite of what you would do for a novel.
Usually, in a novel, it's all about the characters changing, right, the event in the story changing, helping the characters change. And in a chapter book series, I do the opposite, where the characters are pretty much the same, but they set out to solve a mystery, and then through solving that mystery, they help the other characters in the story change. And so I feel like there's still change happening, but at the same time, you're able to pick up any book in the series, and you're still getting pretty much the same two main characters. But with a novel series, I think it depends on how...if I know it's going to be a series going into it or if I'm writing a standalone and that has series potential, so I will plot it differently.
So for example, my Dirt Diary Series, which I call my four-book trilogy, it was only supposed to be three books, and then my editor said, "You know, are you sure you couldn't write a fourth book?" And I said, "Of course, I can't. This is only supposed to be a trilogy." But then when I thought about it, I realized that at the end of Book 3, like yes, everything was wrapped up, however, I had left the character about to enter, like, a new phase in her life, and so that was set up for another book.
So I do look for those kind of moments, where what...yes, there are things that, in the book, in each book, I try to resolve as much as I can, but some things are left open on purpose, because I don't want to wrap everything up too neatly. And some of those things that are left open, maybe that's potential for another book. So I don't know if I'm leaving those open on purpose in case there's another book, but I just feel like that's the nature of the stories that not everything is going to be neatly wrapped up. And so there's always that element that you can add on to.
And then I did write the I'm With Cupid series, which I knew was going to be a trilogy right away, so I was able to...I still tried to make each book stand alone in a satisfying way, but there was some themes that I was able to carry over from the beginning to end, and some, kind of, larger plot elements that I was able to connect through all three books.
Mary: This, by the way, is the power position that we keep talking about. It's when your publisher asks you for another book in a series, even in a series that you thought was wrapped up.
Anna: Yeah, I mean, and then you have to scramble to try to figure out if you can do it. And I think sometimes, you have to real and you have to say, "Well, if I write another one, is that a book that needs to exist?" Because I feel like... I love these characters. I could keep writing about them forever, but is that a story that actually needs to be told? Like I get emails from readers all the time, "Is there gonna be another book in the series?" And I think, "Well, I think these characters are, kind of, happy that I'm done messing up their lives, and I think that maybe we just let them do their own thing now and I focus on new things."
Mary: I think though that the best sense that a reader can get when they close a book, even the last book in a series, is that the characters are off on some new adventure, and sometimes, another book does come out of that new adventure, but it's the sense that they are on the precipice of something else, whether or not we get to see it.
Anna: Yeah, absolutely. And I love that as reader, where you can, kind of, then imagine what might happen next and I don't necessarily need to read that story, but it's fun to just have it in my brain.
Mary: You are brilliant and I could listen to you forever, but we do have to wrap up this interview pretty soon. I'm always curious about the writer and the writing teacher and how both exist in the same person. Has becoming a writing teacher at the master's level changed the way you write, the way you approach your own projects? Do you combine these two hats that you wear? Do you keep them separate? What is that like to juggle?
Anna: I think that...I don't know that I would have gotten this far in my writing career if I wasn't also a writing teacher, just because I feel like teaching other people how to do it makes you, obviously, have to master it yourself. But then I'm always looking for new resources and new ideas to bring into the classroom, which keeps me always learning. And so I probably would do that anyway, but I wouldn't have that external motivation as much. My schedule changes where now, I only teach in the spring, and I feel like every spring, it's almost like refilling that craft well, where every time, as I teach this class, and these are just...there's always something relevant to something I'm struggling with in my own writing, where I think, "Oh, I'm so glad we're talking about plotting this week, because I'm really struggling with this thing," and so they're good reminders for me. It's things that, you know, I technically know, but just in that I need to hear again in a different context, to help me with whatever I'm working on. So I feel like, especially learning about structure and plotting, which were never strengths of mine, when I was starting out, I really struggled with finishing projects and structuring projects. I've had to learn so much about those techniques in order to teach them, and that's helped me immensely in my own writing.
So I feel like it's really hard to even separate those two hats that I wear, because they're so tightly interwoven, because I feel like even as I'm teaching, I'm also a writer who's learning. And so I think they work really well together. I mean, sometimes it can be, you know, a lot to read a lot of student work and be commenting on other people's work and then to have the brain power left over for your own work. And I feel like I also get much more critical of my own work when I'm critiquing other people's work. But ultimately, I think it balances out and even if I don't have the brain power during the semester to be working on those projects, I'm then so excited to jump into them after the semester's over because I've discovered all sorts of things along the way, and I've been very motivated to work on those projects.
Mary: And I think you bring us back to this idea of writing being a journey and there are only so many writing craft ideas out there. You know, people come up with a new beat sheet strategy or a new plotting strategy or characterization strategy, but at the same time, there's, sort of, only a few core pieces of writing advice, but when we encounter them again and again, we are different writers, we are further along on our writing and our craft journey and I get feedback all the time. I have probably 500 articles out there on Kidlit and the Good Story Company blog. And writers are always saying in the comments like, "I found this on the day when it mattered so much, and it just addresses something that I'm struggling with right now." And I feel like craft lessons hit us differently at different points in our writing journeys.
Anna: Absolutely. I remember a few years ago, I was attending an SCBWI conference and somebody said to me, "But you're published. Like why are you here? What do you get out of this conference?" I'm like, "Are you kidding? There's so much." I mean, it's as if, like, once you're published, you know everything. And like I said before, I feel like the more I learn, the more I realize I have to learn. And so yeah, I feel like it's, kind of, humbling how much I still have left to figure out, and so I feel like I'm always looking for new techniques and new ideas and just a different perspective, even if it's on something that I've already done a million times. If it's just a slightly different way of looking at it, it can help me with whatever it is that I'm trying to do at that time with my writing. So yeah, I feel like you always need that, kind of that input and that perspective, because you just never know how it might help you with whatever you're working on.
Mary: I love that. All right, so why don't you take us home and let your audience today know what's next for you.
Anna: Okay, so I actually have two books releasing this month.
Mary: What?
Anna: I have my next picture book called "Beast in Show," which is illustrated by Joanie Stone and published by Henry Holt, and it's about a girl and her lovable dog Huxley, who signed up for a dog show. And they get to the dog show and the other dogs don't quite look like dogs. They're more like dragons and robots and aliens. So that was a really fun one to work on.
And then I have the paperback release of "The Wonder of Wildflowers," which was published just about a year ago by Simon & Schuster, that came out right before the pandemic. And so now, it's coming out in paperback and that's middle grade magical realism.
And then in June, I have my next upper middle grade novel coming out of Scholastic, and that's called, "Clique Here," C-L-I-Q-U-E, "Clique Here," about a girl who uses science to become popular. So that one was a really fun one to work on and I'm excited for that to come out.
Mary: And are you working on anything that is not yet ready for an audience to hear about? You have works in progress too?
Anna: I sure do. I always have lots and lots of things. I actually, at this point, have... So I mentioned I have a Work for Hire project that I'm not sure I can talk about yet that I'm working on. Then I have a middle-grade project and a YA idea that's I'm about to run. I even wrote an adult novel that I sent my agent.
Mary: Oh, my goodness.
Anna: And I'm waiting for her to get back to me and say, "All your characters sound 13." So we'll see what happens with that. I feel like my imagination is always going, which could be really exciting, but also can get a little crowded in there. So we'll see what's next, but yes, I always have something in the works.
Mary: So much good writing advice and writing perspective here. I cannot thank you enough for speaking with me today and sharing your wisdom with our listeners. Once again this has been Anna Staniszewski, writer of picture books, chapter books, middle grade, and maybe an adult novel that sounds like middle grade. You never know. Thank you so much for joining us.
Anna: Thank you so much, Mary. I really appreciate it. This is great.
Mary: It has been my pleasure. And here's to a good story.
Thank you so much for listening. This has been the "Good Story Podcast" with your host Mary Kole. I want to give a huge shoutout to everyone at the Good Story Company. You can find us online at goodstorycompany.com. The team is Amy Holland, Amy Wilson, Jenna Van Rooy, Kate Elsinger, Kathy Martinolich, Kristen Overman, Michal Leah, Rhiannon Richardson, and Steve Reiss. Also a shout out to our Patreon supporters. And to everyone listening out there, here's to a good story.
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