Episode 42: Jenn Hanson-dePaula, Book Marketing Consultant
Going viral on TikTok can’t be your entire book marketing strategy. So how do new authors go about finding their ideal readers? Jenn Hanson-dePaula guides you through the steps of elevating your book promo! Tune in to hear her take on what marketing is and isn’t, tips for building your social media platform (including valuable advice on what to post), and why you should have a newsletter.
Transcript of Episode 42: Jenn Hanson-dePaula, Book Marketing Consultant
00:01.42 Mary (goodstory)
Hello and welcome to the Good Story Podcast. My name is Mary Kole and with me, I have Jenn Hanson-dePaula, who is here to talk about book marketing. Dun, dun, dun!
00:15.12 Jenn
Yes, everybody's favorite subject.
00:18.32 goodstory
Jenn, why don't you take it away? Tell us a little bit about yourself.
00:21.74 Jenn
Yeah, I have been in marketing for over 24 years, which kind of boggles my mind. I kind of have to stop and catch my breath on that one. But I've been— I got my start in the music industry. I call myself a recovering publicist. I got people, you know, like coverage on TV and radio and all that. And as grandma as this sounds, this was before social media, like when I really got started.
But then I started my own company in about 2005. And that's really when social media was starting to take place and things were starting to move more digital. And so I saw this really great opportunity. And at the time for musicians, to tap into that and started, you know, like doing more blogs and online content and really started to tap into social media. And as things really started to take off for them-- we lived in Nashville, Tennessee at the time—and so we had a lot of musician friends.
01:24.58 goodstory
Oh, nice.
01:26.16 Jenn
And I also met a lot of authors that lived down there and they were like, Hey, can you do what you're doing for musicians for books? And not knowing if I could, I was like, sure, why not?
01:40.40 goodstory
That's right. Fake it till you make it.
01:42.16 Jenn
Exactly. And so it was, I've always been a huge reader. Like I love books and it was just always a dream to work with authors. And I had, it's interesting there were like, when I worked at the, one of the record labels that I worked at, we did some book projects where there was like a book that accompanied like, a special project or like a Christmas project or something like that. So it was, I started to see, you know, like, okay, it is rather similar.
So as I started working more and more with authors, I saw like what, if but like the approach was the same, like similar, but with the musicians that I was working with, they just kind of innately know, okay, I have to go out and perform. I have to go out and put this into the world.
And as I was working with more and more authors, they were just they were so hesitant. And it's just like this, OK, I don't want to put myself out there. I want to be at my desk not dealing with people. And I don't want to do this. And so I just saw such an opportunity to help authors to really empower them with like what marketing actually is and what it isn't and how they can have that ownership and they can feel confident in presenting their books and getting it out there into the world. And so in, I guess it was 2019 or somewhere around in there, I completely changed the focus of the company to go all in on authors. And so I've been doing it, I know I've been doing it for 15 years, so whatever 15 years is from today.
03:25.22 goodstory
Oh, wow. Okay. 2009.
03:33.35 Jenn
2009, yes, okay, yes. It was when my son was born, that's what it was. And so yeah, we just turned the focus and I've been absolutely loving it ever since. I am just one of those geeky people that loves marketing and I thrive more on the business side of things with that. And I love helping authors really own their marketing, their connections and feeling confident in doing that.
04:02.56 goodstory
Well, that's fabulous because as you mentioned, not a lot of authors feel confident owning their marketing.
04:07.31 Jenn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
04:09.04 goodstory
And I really want to talk about what marketing is and isn't. I think that is fascinating. But I was just reading Book Wars. It was about the digital revolution in publishing. And one of the natural comparison points was actually to the music industry and how digitization ruined the music industry, basically.
04:28.81 Jenn
Yes.
04:33.01 goodstory
That's kind of the top line takeaway, especially when it comes to services like Spotify that, you know, pay via a royalty pool by a number of streams, and so books are distinct from that in that they haven't really followed that model outside of you know, Kindle Unlimited would be an analog to it. And also just the downward price pressure of buying a song from iTunes for 99 cents and kind of the value of music and discoverability in music, which is sort of lorded over by these big record companies who are analogous to publishers.
So you were you had a front row seat for kind of all of this.
05:15.76 Jenn
Oh, I was there. Yeah. And that was the crazy thing, like I got my start in 2000. I worked at the first like, record label.
05:24.07 goodstory
Okay.
05:25.74 Jenn
And before that, there were sites like Napster and you know like all these free...
05:33.77 goodstory
So peer to peer sharing and piracy.
05:36.43 Jenn
Exactly. And something—so when, you know, like the iPod came out in what, 2001 or 2002, that was such a pivotal time. And it was something that I think, you know, like everyone was just kind of gobsmacked with like, what do we, you know, it happened so quickly. And I specifically remember, and this has kind of been something that I've really hung my hat on for my entire career. I had a conversation with one of the presidents of the label that I was working at, and we were talking about all of this and all this change, and he said, we should (we, meaning the music industry) should have been the ones to think of Napster. We should have been thinking ahead. We should have been more forward-thinking and not being so comfortable to think that everything was just gonna stay the same. And so that is something that I specifically remember. I know where we were in the building that day because I remember the air was kind of sucked out of my lungs. I was like, this is a profound moment. I specifically remember that. And I'm always trying to think ahead. What is it that is going to help us to not be constantly chasing the next thing?
Rather than let's try to be ahead of it or you know like even in line with it so it isn't such a massive smack across the face when it happens. And I actually, when I moved over from when I left the record label, I had written a blog post about lessons that the publishing industry should learn from musicians and you know like through this whole thing because you can see okay this isn't just limited to music, this is going to be TV, this is going to be film, this is going to be books all of that and so there was so much that I think the publishing industry could have learned in response and you know just even now I think that there's so much that you know like that publishers or you know, even authors should be aware of and be forward-thinking of and not be in fear but thinking okay, this change is going to happen. How can I go with it or how can I make some changes so I'm not desperately trying to scramble?
08:06.53 goodstory
Yeah, absolutely. So Book Wars, and we'll get onto book publishing in a second, but I literally just finished this like two days ago, so my head is full of it, where it seems that publishers and the music industry diverge, though, is in format. Because once digitization came for music, that's it. Like you said, the iPod came out, people could carry 10,000 albums in their pockets, whatever the number was, right? And you can see these graphs of, like, cassette tapes. CDs came and went. As soon as it went digital, it went digital. And when eBooks similarly were introduced, there was a lot of doom and gloom in the publishing industry about, wow, this is going to kill print, da, da, da. The Kindle came out. There was this big splash. But eBook sales have their place and are more typical in certain formats, certain category genres, and have leveled off.
So that kind of flashpoint had a lot of people scared. But now we've seen that you know just like you, you're displaying these beautiful physical objects, you know, they're larger units of experience than, say, a song from an album that somebody might want when they don't want, you know, the whole package kind of arbitrary selection of songs. And so there is a little bit of sort of divergence in terms of, you know, how publishing has reacted. That's not to say publishing has been perfect. That's not to say there isn't, you know, the business model of publishing, as anybody in publishing will tell you, is broken in so many lovely ways. But, so I'm interested in sort of how you've seen this effect. Creatives, first musicians, first authors, this idea of we are at a tipping point, we are at this stage where things are changing maybe more rapidly than they ever have. What is the kind of creator that is best positioned to take advantage of what this situation offers?
10:17.56 Jenn
Yeah, it's interesting because like I specifically remember having some conversations with some of the artists that I worked with right when you know, like CDs were going away and you know everything was going digital. With musicians, for example, I had a conversation with a band and they were like, well, we never made the bulk of our money from CD sales. We made it from selling stickers at shows. We made it by playing live.
10:46.87 goodstory
Merch and touring, yeah.
10:48.27 Jenn
Yes. And so that, and that it was interesting because like once the CD side of things started going away, I start you started to see more labels, record labels, trying to acquire management, like to be under the umbrella of the public of the label, having like different merch companies and stuff like that. So you know it's interesting to see how that impacted the musicians. But then when you look at authors and you think about, okay, for fiction, is it something where you're kind of limited in terms of like you have this book and you can pump out a series of books to try to get your catalog robust or you can ghost write or you can do other creative writing endeavors and stuff like that to kind of make up for what you might not make solely on your books alone.
And for nonfiction, many times, the authors that I work with, the book is kind of like an ancillary product of what the services that they provide. And so it's different for every creative. It's something where you know like I've seen you like some photographers in that realm, you know like now they're doing courses on how you know teaching people how to best use their iPhone to take beautiful pictures, how to print, develop and all of that stuff.
And so there are ways outside of the actual creative act of writing the book, but you do have to kind of look outside of those parameters because it's definitely not what it was even 20 years ago. But there are some very unique opportunities that continue to pop up. And it's kind of like you don't want to go into it with just saying, I'm only going to do this, like I'm only going to write my books. And it's like, OK, then you like are you going to have an outside job? Or are you going to be you know contributing to someone else's. … are you teaching? It's thinking of different things outside of that box that can really help you not only broaden your reach, but to you know bring in more income and you know just be a little bit more open to different opportunities that might come your way.
13:28.76 goodstory
So we've kind of gone right for the more advanced had consideration of you know it is not very viable, unfortunately, in today's publishing marketplace to only have you know be standing on this monopod of my book and everything I do is in service of my book. What I hear you saying is that the writers that tend to be more successful, including financially, although there are no guarantees, they look for opportunities for more stability for that monopod. They want to turn themselves into a tripod. Maybe once they get enough clout, they can earn from their speaking engagements, signed with a speakers bureau, ah because your musician clients, they tour, right? If they wanted to, they could be on the road 200 days a year, whatever, depending on how little life and health they want to have. But that kind of opportunity doesn't really exist for an author who is very much like, buy my novel. I made some stuff up and I hope you like it. you know And merch, similarly, you know, there are rabid fandoms in in publishing and with book series, but you don't really, you know, you don't see people rocking the ACOTAR shirt as much, you know.
14:46.18 Jenn
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's something, it's different when you are just starting out, like when you are releasing your first book versus when you have 20 books under your belt. you know Because books, especially with fiction, it is a marathon. It isn't a sprint. And when I talk with authors who don't sell millions of copies of their first book. They think that they're a failure. It's like, no, you're not. You know, that first book is such a learning experience and you are—it's like watching a toddler walk for, try to walk for the first time, you know, it's just kind of, they stand up and they're confident and they, you know, they know that they need to project forward, but it's figuring out, you know, the legs and you fall and you get up and you just kind of move your way around. And it's really like that with that first book. You're trying to figure out what is my voice? What is my, how do I want to connect with people? What is my book about? Because that is a whole other skill set that you have to learn is how to present to your book in a very short timeframe in regards to attention span.
And so that is something where when I always tell authors, if you feel like you cannot imagine your life without writing, if you can't imagine doing anything else, you do it. But you also have, you know, like at the beginning, it might mean you still have to work your day job or you might have to, you know, take on some writing projects, but that does not mean that it's forever. It's really this learning time of really starting to figure out your voice and how you want to present and connect with your readers.
16:38.77 goodstory
Which is hugely demoralizing for people who think that all of their problems are going to get solved as soon as they get that publishing deal, you know, and it's like, and you're like, no, no, no, that's the beginning, not the end. It might be the end of one journey where you are sort of buffered from these external forces of the marketplace and readership and reviews and having to market it and blah, blah, blah, you know, but it is the beginning of a much longer journey, especially for those people who intend to be in the game for the long-term.
So let's return to what is marketing and what is not marketing. What is marketing not? Because I love that curiosity hook that you gave us.
17:18.69 Jenn
Oh, yes. So marketing, and this is something that has evolved over the years because with social media, with everything that we have online, it has really changed a lot, even just within 20 years, you know, it's a different mindset and different approach because you you have to think about where do people discover, discuss and purchase books and so that has changed even 20 years ago. So what marketing is … is really connecting with the people that you feel that want to hear or read your stories. I call this your ideal reader. And this is someone that you can speak to within your marketing where you're not talking to everyone. There's this saying, if you try to talk to everyone, you're talking to no one. And so when you have this ideal reader, it helps you to become very crystal clear in what your book is about. When you're focused on just talking to one person rather than 10,000, it makes it much easier. It's less overwhelming. It's less daunting. And you don't have stage fright talking to just one person. But marketing is really about relationships. It's about connection. And it's about telling people why your book is the book that they've been looking for their entire life. And it's not about pushing a sale. Sales come later. Marketing is about connection and awareness. And the mistake that many people think is that marketing and sales go hand in hand, and they do work together. But people have to know who you are before they can buy.
Or before they want to buy, I should say. So when we kind of separate the two to say, okay yes they are connected and they work together, but they're two different acts. That is something that kind of when I tell authors that, and we're like having a one on one, you can physically see. Oh, their shoulders kind of relax and like, okay, I can do that. And when you're focusing on making connection and building awareness for your book, that makes selling so much easier because when people are already aware of your book and when they are aware of you and everything that you have to offer, that makes it so much easier to actually sell. And so it's something where you know like realizing that just because you might be ready to sell your book doesn't mean that everyone's always ready to buy. And that doesn't mean that you've lost the sale. It just means that they need to get to know you a little bit more and to spend that time with you.
And so that, and that's what I love about social media is that you can nurture these connections and you can build that awareness for free on a social media outlet. And you can be consistently showing up sharing that message, which is going to warm up the audience more quickly than it would like if you just had one feature in a magazine or just one appearance on a TV show or something like that, where you know like you can really nurture these connections. So what marketing is, it's just building relationships and making that awareness and connection. It is not constantly trying to push and promote and sell your book. Yes, it is kind of weaved into that, but that's not the main focus. The sales come later. It's more about the connection.
21:13.40 goodstory
So I have about 10 million directions to go from here. To me, it sounds like you are—so our listeners may not all be familiar with this kind of cold, warm, hot audience or the marketing funnel, whatever you want to call it. But basically what you're saying is you can't just show up before anybody knows who you are. They don't like, know, like, or trust you. That's kind of a big marketing buzzword and just say, my book is great, trust me, trust me, buy it, give me $20 or you know give the retailer $20 and give me $1 in six months, maybe, unless there are returns.
21:43.96 Jenn
Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Exactly. Yes.
21:54.70 goodstory
So that's kind of the funnel way of looking at marketing. You're really trying to generate that trust, that warm goodwill in your audience. Speak quickly, if you can, to the death of you know print media, reviews and all of this. So you're saying, you know don't count on one article in a magazine, one TV a period appearance. Even though those are great feathers in your hat and they lend credibility, it doesn't seem like those, because they do target such a wide audience, meaningfully translate into sales, which might surprise some people.
22:36.96 Jenn
Yeah. It's something that social media turned on its head, you know, 15, 20 years ago. When I was working in, when I was a publicist and we didn't have social media, that really was, you know, 25 years ago, that was the only option that we had to get people visibility. And so now when we can connect with readers way before the book even releases, we aren't caged into just these three to four months before the book release to promote it. Back 20 years ago, we only had a finite amount of time to promote a book, an album, whatever it was that we're trying to do. And now, we have infinite space, an infinite amount of time that we can talk about a book. And so when we talk about back then only having a magazine, or TV appearances or having a radio interview where someone only listened to it once, we didn't have this automatic replay … but having it go digital, we had to rely on that. And this again goes back to another story of like at the record label, I specifically remember sitting in a a meeting where the director of marketing was like, I wish we could just go right to the fans. Why do we have to go through this editor or why do we have to try to convince all these gatekeepers to cover our artist because they're amazing. And now we have that. And it's something where because we are so overwhelmed, it is a very noisy online space, we have to show up continuously. And that's why one review in just a print magazine isn't going to make as much of an impact as showing up daily on social media, doing a post and staying visible to your readers.
24:53.02 goodstory
So this gets at the heart of what I hear very commonly. I'm sure you hear it too, which is you say there's infinite time to promote a book. You have to show up consistently and talk about it. Okay. Practically speaking though, and and some writers they're like, I don't want to be on video. To me, if I was a debut writer hearing that advice, I would be like, well, how many different ways can I talk about my book, around my book, about myself, about my writing process, show my writing desk? Those are kind of the top of the line ideas. But you have if consistency is key, which I absolutely agree that it is, how do you keep coming up with new ideas for content that don't retread the same five points?
25:50.62 Jenn
Okay, so the key to marketing is repetition. And that is something where I always tell authors there are three types of posts that you should cycle through week after week. The first type of post is a connection post. This is a post where you are connecting with readers as like a fellow reader or as a just a fellow human being where you are making that connection. These can be posts on like what you're reading or your collection of books. If you write nonfiction, it could be connecting with them on a certain problem that you solve or a certain question that you answer. And so it's more about connecting with your readers as a fellow human being.
The second type of post is promotional. Now, when I say promotional, it doesn't mean by my book, you know, like holding it up there, it is really leaning into—especially for fiction authors—the feelings and emotions that they are looking for within the book. 95% of our buying power is within emotions. We lean into that. We really need to show readers why our book is worth their time because laying down 15 bucks for a book, you know, people will do that, but it'll just live on their shelf forever. But knowing, okay, why is this book worth my time? Why do I want to drop the one I'm reading and instantly pick up your book? So the promotional aspect of it is really giving it that hook. What is it that is going to resonate with your ideal readers? What emotions are they looking for? What problems are they looking to have solved? And if you have this hook, and it's just really a few words where it leans into the emotions or those keywords that people are looking for, and even giving some sort of touchstone. So a touchstone is really thinking about what are some movies or TV shows or other books or current events that my book leans on? So my book is a whimsical and romantic comedy, Friends meets You’ve Got Mail set in 1987 New York City. When you have just those few phrases, those few keywords, it's like someone will look at them and go, that is for me. Because they know I love Friends, I love You’ve Got Mail, and I want a romantic comedy. Done. So it doesn't need to be this deep dive into all the nuances of your book.
28:33.58 goodstory
Your themes, your themes!
28:35.16 Jenn
Yes, yes. It's really leaning into that. And you can use that many different ways. You can say, if you love fun, whimsical, Friends meets You’ve Got Mail, romantic comedies, you'll love my book XYZ with the title. You can reconfigure those words over and over again, but that repetition is what is going to really get into their brains and sink in. So that is like a promotion and also promotional— I’m big on newsletters. So you can like promote your free incentive. That's promotional. That's getting them on your list. So that's another type of promotional post.
Then the third is a nurturing post that is really building community. And that is, you know, l like to use Instagram stories for those nurturing, behind the scenes. I share pictures of my dog or you know if I share a picture of my son, that's where I share it. That kind of thing where you kind of you can show behind the scenes or you know kind of nurture that there. But those three different types of posts, they give you the parameters that you need to kind of keep it tucked in a little bit, but it gives you also that repetition that's so important.
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29:49.53 goodstory
What I'm hearing you say is that marketing is all about, or at least the promotional part of marketing is all about vibes.
29:56.61 Jenn
Mm hmm.
29:57.74 goodstory
You know, vibes, aesthetic. You can just say dark academia. You can, for our romance writers, you can be like, oh no, there's only one bed trope, and just let it run because that speaks for a segment of the audience and what they might be looking for.
30:06.47 Jenn
Yes. Yes. Exactly. And that you can just use a few words that really nail what it is that your book is about and it sounds awful, but you kind of you want to dumb it down and repeat. Dumb it down and repeat. It does not need to be something that is completely new every single day or every single week. You can reuse a lot of this, but really remembering that social media is that entry point. It's really introducing people to who you are, what you write about. I always tell authors that social media is kind of like window shoppers. They're just on the outside and looking in. But when you have a newsletter and a newsletter subscriber, they're in the store and they're ready to buy. They want to know more. So remembering that social media is just that first entry point. If you don't want to do social media, being doing a podcast tour, going on different podcasts, you could do a blog tour …
31:26.78 goodstory
Are blogs dead? Yes or no?
31:28.85 Jenn
No, I think that they're still alive.
31:30.96goodstory
Okay.
31:31.07 Jenn
Yes. Yeah. They're still going. Absolutely. Because when you think about it, like readers, I've had so many people that say, you know like with for an author to write a blog, it's like, that's a fantastic way to let people know like your writing style. Because readers love to read. And blogs really still are very, very popular.
31:55.27 goodstory
So newsletters are great and kind of a more advanced tactic, though you should start your newsletter ASAP. You're just to start collecting because it's, it's eyeballs that you own. What about Substack?
32:14.76 Jenn
Okay, so here's my take.
32:18.11 goodstory
I love that. Okay. The gloves are off.
32:21.97 Jenn
No, I actually it's funny, I actually wrote a blog post about my thoughts on Substack—
32:27.73 goodstory
You didn't write a Substack on blog posts?!
32:29.90 Jenn
I didn't because I don't have a Substack. And here's the thing. With Substack, I would never tell an author, don't do Substack. I would never say, you need to do this over that. You need to find what works best for you, what you're most comfortable with, and what you see the most results from. That being said, my red flags around Substack are A, that is still rented space. That is not a place that you own. It could go away. With a newsletter, it's more robust. And you can do more with a newsletter rather than with Substack. And meaning this, with a newsletter, you can segment your list. You can get very specific. You can automate. That is the biggest thing with newsletters is that there's that automation feature. With Substack, authors are kind of lured in by, oh, I can charge people for this.
33:36.48 goodstory
Hmm, yep.
33:40.55 Jenn
It's a platform for writers and it's like, okay, yes. First of all, if you are going to be charging, like if you get up to like having 2,000 paid subscribers, you're going to be paying Substack and Stripe more within your monthly payments than you would for like a Flodesk or a Mailer Lite or something like that, which is a newsletter subscription service. That is something where there are some people that love Substack and they love that community, and that's great. Go for it. But if we're talking about going deeper within you know like actually making the most out of your newsletter and like taking it to the next level with your marketing, a traditional newsletter is so much more powerful than a Substack.
34:32.94 goodstory
And it sounds maybe so old school because we've all been kind of inundated with spam, newsletters. Some of us have entire email addresses that we just have all the crap sent to. But email marketing is sort of the foundation of a lot of modern marketing because if your audience is engaged, if you've targeted them, if they are that kind of warm to hot lead, as you were saying, the people in the store, your open rates can just blow other types of exposure out of the water.
35:07.79 Jenn
Well, and you sell more. That's the thing. Even if you push aside the number of newsletter subscribers, the open rate and all that stuff, that is important, but i it's actually using it not just to promote and sell. Because that's one of the big things like I hear authors saying, well, I only ever use my newsletter when I have a book coming out. It's like, okay, that is kind of like the friend who only calls you when they need something.
35:40.99 goodstory
Hey, you have a truck. I need to move this weekend.
35:42.58 Jenn
Yes, exactly the dreaded truck.
So yes, that is something where you like your newsletter, it doesn't need to be the slimy, you know, newsletter that you might be used to some people having, you can make your newsletter an incredible experience for your readers. And it can be something where a newsletter, when you show up, like let's say you show up every week, just like sharing a story or something like that, you're staying at the front of their mind. That is something that we never want them to look at our email and go, who is that? I don't remember, that you know mark it as spam or I never signed up for that. You don't want that. So when you can use your newsletter to really stay in touch with your readers and it's totally doable because you can create great content that continues to warm the audience and then when you're ready to sell or do a promotion or something like that, they're going to be ready to buy.
36:44.83 goodstory
So consistency is key, unfortunately.
36:48.97 Jenn
But with a newsletter, you're not having to reinvent or create a whole other set of content for this. So here's a little tip. Something that I love to do is to take what I've already created. So let's say it's writing a caption for an Instagram post, let's say.
37:13.54 goodstory
Great.
37:14.64 Jenn
You can take that caption, put it into your newsletter, reformat it a little bit. There's your newsletter for the week. If you have a weekly podcast, there's your weekly email. If you do a weekly blog or if you do a weekly YouTube or something like that, there's your newsletter. It's not having to come up with something completely different to write about for your newsletter. You can reuse. It's about all about taking what you already have and working with it. You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time.
37:49.73 goodstory
Would you recommend kind of a similar approach to, you know, here's the human newsletter. Here's a promotional newsletter. Here's an interesting like whatever update newsletter.
38:03.29 Jenn
Absolutely. I'm a big advocate for planning ahead, just because if you were to look at like the next, let's say six months. And let's say your book came out in January, you’re ready to start writing your new book and stuff like that. Maybe, so if we're in June right now, maybe in July, I can do a special promotion for my ebook for the release that I just did in January. Okay, so I have that planned. And then in October and November, we're going to be getting into the Christmas season. Maybe I can do a special bundle for my books. Soyou're looking ahead. And then once you have those promotions planned out, you can fill in the rest with like, okay, here I can talk about my new book that I'm working on and kind of let them in on some of the behind the scenes with that. Maybe I can share a short story that I wrote like two years ago that I just want … you know it's fun, so I'll share that with them. And you can fill in the gaps with other things to kind of make up a kind of like a strategy where it's a give, a give, and then you ask them for a sale. It's that give, give, ask approach where you're not just constantly asking and you're not just constantly giving, but there it's like a good balance between promotion and that connection.
39:34.06 goodstory
Engagement.
39:35.05 Jenn
Engagement, exactly.
39:35.08 goodstory
Yeah. So book launches, you were saying, hey, we don't just market around the book launch anymore. We can, you know, it's not that kind of like make or break six weeks. And then, you know, you get home, you take your jeans off and you can relax from all this like dirty marketing work. Right? And I don't think marketing is dirty. I'm just saying like that is, that is kind of the gripe. It feels slimy to a lot of people.
39:59.36Jenn
Absolutely.
40:00.90 goodstory
It feels self-promotional. Talk to me about, first of all, debut disappointment and kind of that feeling and what writers can do instead to kind of proactively keep putting themselves out there when that that hot period comes and goes.
40:22.95 Jenn
Yes. All right. So there are three phases to book marketing. And this is really important to kind of have in your head, just so you know where you're at within the process. So the first phase is the attraction phase. And when you start writing your book up until about three to four months, give or take a little bit before your book releases. And so the attraction phase is when you're building those connections where you're... And that's the this is the fun ah fun time because you're just talking about books that you love you know and you're just really making these great connections. You might share, hey, I'm working on a book you know and I'm really excited. you know And you just start building those—
40:59.63 goodstory
This is when hopes are high, before they're dashed. That’s why it’s fun.
41:01.41 Jenn
Exactly. Yes. But ah it is about those, you're making book friends and book friends are the best. Like it is just so much fun. And so then the second phase is the promotional phase. Now this is about three to four months before the release date until about two weeks after the release date. And this is when you can really start sharing that hook. This is when you can really start talking more about this, you know, like what it is about your book that is going to just make them so excited that they can't wait to lay down their credit card to buy it. And you can maybe start doing the pre-orders. You can do like all of the promotional things to just to get that excitement going. Then it releases, and then you have the follow-up phase. And the follow-up phase is two about two weeks after the release and into infinity. Your book has no and this is what I love about books is that they can live forever. You can talk about them for as long as you live and they will still be relevant to new people that discover you.
Back, you know again 20 years ago, we only had really those three to four months to really promote that book and so let's do with the second question first, you know, like what can authors do to, you know, prevent that? When you focus on the attraction phase and really developing those connections, it's going to make the promotional phase that much more seamless because again, you want to make sure that eyeballs are on you so that when you do have your book ready, they are primed and much more open to buy. So taking that time, you do not need to have a complete book written or you like you can even just be in the beginning phases. It's really about starting to build that awareness and build those connections. And there are so many authors that are doing a really fantastic job at that and you know like building that audience before their book is launched.
So let's say you launched your book and it was a big wah, wah, wah. It just did not go like you had planned. All hope is not lost. Again, you have a long... Your book has a long life ahead of it. So how can you kind of revive this? This is where you start, again, talking about the book. You start cycling through those three different types of posts. You start making connection posts, you start talking about your book and promoting it, and then you start building that community. It is something that takes some time, but it's really about just picking things up and just starting to talk about it again. And thinking about, okay, what is my reader's experience as they're going through: they see my post, they resonate with it, they click the link in my bio. What is their experience on Amazon? Like maybe it might be retootling your description. Maybe it might be retootling your sales page on your website, thinking, and this is something where we have that freedom and the ability to change things. Like if if the description wasn't that strong, you can change it.
44:28.11 goodstory
Mm hmm, mm hmm.
44:28.60 Jenn
You are not getting as strong of a response from your sales page, you can go in and tweak that. And so it's something where, yeah, you want to learn and think, okay, maybe I might need to make a few adjustments, but that's totally doable. It's something where you can't, it's just heartbreaking when I hear authors say like their book was released during the pandemic and they you like had to drop all of their um you know their tours or going and doing visits or speaking engagements, and they feel like their book is dead. It's like, no, you can always, always talk about that book. And it doesn't matter if it was released five years ago, 10 years ago, whatever it is, you can always start talking about it and bring it back to life.
45:14.59 goodstory
So tell me, does an author have to engage a marketing or PR professional, especially given just the mountains of money involved in a publishing deal usually, right, that we have lying around for this sort of thing. Because it sounds like you mostly, or correct me if I'm wrong, please, but you do a lot of coaching of writers for managing their own stuff. So it does seem within reach for somebody who isn't hiring a publicist. How does somebody approach it?
45:52.82 Jenn
Absolutely. So the way that I personally present everything, there's a lot of information out there you know for authors and it's something where there's a lot of really great information and there's a lot of very misleading information. So this is where I really encourage authors to find a trusted community. And you like if that's Facebook groups, if that's like, we have a membership on our, it's called the Author Circle. That's half the reason why I created it because I was like, I want a trusted, safe space.
Um, or, you know, like if it's just meeting up with certain author friends where you can say, Hey, have you worked with this company or did you try this? Did it work for you? And getting that feedback is really important. So that is something that I encourage authors to start off with. But then finding resources where you can learn, okay, this is how I am going to connect with readers on social media, or this is how I can pitch my book to a podcast, or you know like thinking through what are the ways that I want to connect with readers as an author. If social media isn't your vibe, that's totally fine. But thinking about how am I going to build that awareness? Is it going to be, you know again, like we had said, through podcasts?
I had an author, he was writing historical fiction and he was like, I'm in my sixties. I don't want to start social media. How can I just start talking about this book? And I was like, done, you're good. Let's look where you, where are you? Where do you live? And he said, I live in St. Louis. And I was like, fantastic. Are there historical societies around your area?" He's like, yes, there are. And he like he called me back a couple weeks later, he's like, I can't believe how much I've gotten just the even the St. Louis area. He was just able to go locally. And that just elated him. And he was able to connect with people. He was selling books. He was able to kind of like build this little community that he could you know be a part of. And it's something where finding what brings you joy in connecting with your readers. If you want to, you know, like just, I always tell author start simple and you can always get fancy later. If you just want to start with your local areas, you know, doing local writer groups or local author meetups or something like that, you can absolutely start with that. But it's thinking about how do you, you're like really, what do you have the bandwidth for? You know, like if you are able to spend a lot of time doing all of this, or just starting with one social media account and just spending your time, you know, like nurturing those connections there. But it's really about starting and thinking about, okay, how do I want to connect with readers? What outlets or what resources are there that I can use for that? And then going from there.
48:58.88 goodstory
TikTok is a meat grinder, that not even publishers know how it works. So everybody just, you know, the sacrifices to the algorithm in the hopes that something will pop. What are your thoughts? Should people get involved? How should they manage expectations if they do choose to get involved?
49:23.02 Jenn
So with TikTok, that is something that you have to know if that is going to be good for you. Is it going to be good for your own mental health? Is it good for... Because I have some authors that they absolutely love doing TikTok, but they hate doing Instagram. Some, they flat out say, I will not do TikTok, but I will do Instagram. That's great. What I would say, if you're curious about it, is just creating an account and just start looking, observing. And that's with any new social media outlets. Like, okay, go and observe first. It doesn't mean that you have to go in, you know, headfirst into the deep end.
So there are some people, some authors that find great success with TikTok. Some just absolutely hate it and they don't want to to be involved with it. And that is something, it is a personal choice and it is something where yes, there are tons of people on on TikTok. It can be, I've heard people say it's kind of like the Wild West and it is, but you know what? I heard someone say, and I wish I remember who had said this, but it's so true, you are the algorithm. Who, what you consume, what you engage with, and what you um take part in feeds your content to those people as well. And that was something like that I really, like when I started my TikTok, I was like, okay, I am just sticking with authors, 'm talking about books. And yeah, there are those crummy people that just kind of go into rile people up, but you kind of have to ignore them. But there is a really great community of authors and readers on TikTok, just as there's a great community for authors and readers on Instagram. And so it so depends on your personality, on you like how you want to show up. If you don't want to do video, don't go on TikTok. I always say if you're kind of debating what should I do, if you aren't used to video, start off on Instagram because you can do images, you can do graphics, you can you know just kind of dabble in i=reels if you want. And then once you kind of get used to that and you find your voice and you find your footing, then if you do really love doing videos, then maybe go look over at TikTok and see if that is something that you want to do. but It's not something for everyone. And it's just kind of like, look and see if that fits with your personality and with how you want to approach your marketing.
52:04.10 goodstory
I think one of the best things that you've said, it's all been great, but in this anecdote about this historical author, you said that it gave him so much joy. And I think that too many people burn out on marketing because they feel like they have to do it all or they commit to something super ambitious that isn't like them at all. And so, of course, they're going to run out of steam, run out of bandwidth. They're going to start to hate it.
You wrote your book for a reason. right? It brought you joy, presumably at some point in this whole endeavor. And I think that's a really nice reminder to also think about how it can bring somebody else joy. Ideally, that's your hope, unless you are a Machiavellian type of person. And it how do you connect your joy to their joy and make it an overwhelmingly sort of positive, not you know too overwhelmingly positive, but just make it a positive place where they're your book friends. And you happen to have a book to share with your book friends.
53:11.42 Jenn
Yes, exactly. Yes. And that's something I think I always love to remind authors, okay, what is your why? Why are you writing this? And so many authors say, like, when I was a kid, I felt seen by the characters that I read about. Or I felt like I wasn't alone. Like, I had someone that even if it was a fictional character, they lived in my imagination and I want to do that for other people as well. And I'm like, okay, there you go. That is who you're connecting with. And so it's always thinking about who is that person? Even like I've had, I've encouraged some authors to have a picture of themselves when they were little on their desk so that they can remember, okay, that's who I'm writing for. It takes me back to my why. And so whenever authors start to feel deflated or defeated, it's like, okay, it's okay to feel that. Own those feelings, that's okay. But also look and say, you are going to make a difference in someone else's life. Is it going to be a million people? Maybe, maybe not, but there are people that are going to be impacted by your story or by the help that you're providing or by the information you're providing. So always go back to your why, think about your who and do it for them and do it for yourself as well because it's a huge accomplishment to write a book.
55:00.60 goodstory
You couldn't have landed this interview any better. I just, no notes. As the youth say, you devoured, left no crumbs.
55:08.14 Jenn
Yes. Oh, yes.
55:12.86 goodstory
I've been watching TikTok if you can't tell. How can people find you? The author community you were talking about sounds great and very supportive and very relevant to marketing. So tell us where to go bask in your greatness.
55:30.58 Jenn
Yeah. Oh, you're so sweet. Well, my website is jenndepaula.com, D-E-P-A-U-L-A dot.com. And everything, all of my links to social media can be found there. The Author Circle is our wonderful membership where if you are looking to, you know, like if you're getting started with developing your audience, getting your marketing laid out, figuring out this whole crazy world of publishing. The Author Circle is just $27 a month. And I do monthly Ask Me Anything hours. We have this great community where you can ask questions and get that feedback. And I have a ton of a whole library of resources that you can tap into. So that's there. But if you're just wanting to get started on figuring out what's going to work for you and your marketing, I have a free book marketing blueprint that you can find on jenndepaula.com and you can start there. And I have a bunch of free resources there too that you can tap into. So head on over there.
56:33.21 goodstory
Jenn Hanson-dePaula, thank you so much for your time and wisdom and just the uplifting beacon of light in this kind of murky darkness of marketing that I think a lot of writers are wading into. Thank you.
56:48.02 Jenn
Yes. Well, thank you for having me. I've loved being a part of your show.
56:52.64
goodstory
This is Mary Kole and The Good Story Podcast. Here's to a good story that you sell—but gently—to your readership.
57:02.04 Jenn
Yes!
57:02.69 goodstory
Thank you very much.
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