Writing Across Age Groups with Alice Kuipers

Multi-published author Alice Kuipers chats with Mary about getting published, what it's like to have a writing career, and craft insights across categories.

This webinar exclusively for Story Mastermind students originally took place in 2020 as part of our Kidlit in Conversation series. For serious writers ready to take their work to the next level, Story Mastermind is a proven program that helps you refine your craft and position your writing in the market. In just six months, you can finish your draft, get professional edits, and develop a plan to launch your book—all in an intensive small-group workshop environment. There’s nothing else like it in the writing world.

Transcript for Writing Across age groups: Interview with Alice Kuipers

Alice: All right.

Mary: So, Alice is the fabulously talented multi-published author across a lot of different categories. We have three people who have chimed in from British Columbia, so you have a lot of fellow Canadian representation...

Alice: Hello, yes. Hello, Canada.

Mary: ...in the audience. So, you're based in Saskatoon. You have a large family. You do a lot of philanthropic pursuits that are very near and dear to your heart. So, you have a very full and active life, and you're also writing for a lot of different categories. So, there's a lot to talk about, there's a lot going on, and one of the books that we'll be talking about specifically—and I wish I had found it, otherwise I would hold it up because you were so gracious to send me a copy—is "Polly Diamond." It's a chapter book series. There you go.

Alice: Here it is. Well, the reason I have it is actually this is the new paperback. Twenty copies just arrived yesterday of this one. There's a second book, which is in hardcover, but this one just arrived in paperback.

Mary: Congratulations.

Alice: So, I thought, "Oh, I could bring one upstairs."

Mary: Congratulations.

Alice: Well, if people have questions about more technical aspects of chapter book writing, then there's bits I would look at specifically on the page there that would be helpful.

Mary: That is fantastic. And I did say, while you were gone, Alice is also a writing teacher through the Writing Blueprints platform. She has the middle-grade and young-adult writing blueprint as well as chapter book. Is that it or do you have one more?

Alice: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. We've made those over the last couple of years, and so I've got lots of students who come and do classes there. That's an online space where people can take the videos at their own time and look through the homework, I suppose, or the tasks to build their own book at their own pace.

Mary: Yeah, it's a great platform because you get to, sort of, teach it yourself with expert guidance in the form of videos and handouts. And Alice has developed some of my favorite programs there. I have the Manuscript Submission Blueprint, which is all about agent research and the submission steps. But for the craft focus, Alice really is at the forefront of the chapter book, middle grade, and young adult, which is why I'm so excited to have her because she will bring, I hope, a lot of craft insights. No pressure.

Alice: Anything you guys want to know basically, yeah, I'm here for you. So, if there's anything useful that any of you want to know about any aspect of writing for children and young adults, then hopefully I can answer your questions and Mary's questions. Yeah, anything. Don't feel like your question is something that's silly or maybe everybody already knows the answer because most of us don't know all the answers and some of the answers have taken me years to figure out even if it might seem like a silly question. And I could save you a lot of time.

Mary: Right, and even if you think you know part of the answer, you might always get some additional insight to flesh out the answer even more.

Alice: Hopefully.

Mary: So, I have questions and we will leave some time at the end for your questions. For those of us just joining, again, we have a question tab down below where you can type in any questions that develop. All right, so let's dive in. I would love to know, Alice, your authorly backstory, how you came to writing, and, kind of, some of your early road if you could please enlighten us.

Alice: Sure. So, I have always loved to read, which is where my love of writing, I think, was rooted. Although when that began, it was really a pure passion for just enjoying being immersed in story. And despite the fact I have six children I'm responsible for in my household at the moment, I still manage to read every day. That's been something that I have always continued. And it's actually my fundamental rule is that I read at least 50 pages every day no matter what. Even when I was, like, having my kids, and they were being born, I would still make sure I read 50 pages. Normally fairly easy books at that stage. And so I loved reading.

And then as I got a little bit older, I had a teacher at school who invited us to write a novel in class when we were 11. So, I wrote a whole book, and it was, I don't know, 30 pages, and I loved doing it. Then I wrote stories and poems. And then by the time I was 14, 15, I was very busy with boys and parties and not really thinking much beyond the moment. And I still wrote, I still read, but I thought I should have, like, a serious job, so I considered all sorts of things, you know, working in the city or being a lawyer or a politician or... Never really doctor. That didn't ever seem feasible.

Then I went traveling when I was 18. I went traveling by myself for nearly a year. And during that time, I realized quite quickly that I didn't particularly want to keep a journal. I wanted to make stories up. And so I invented stories and poems. And when I came back, I went to university. I had got a place already before I left to go traveling. And while I was at university, I barely showed up for lectures, and I spent most of my time working on a novel that didn't end up being published, but it was important to me.

And the one other piece in there, I suppose, in terms of journey, when I was about 19, I was traveling again, 20 maybe, and it was just a shorter trip. It was just a two-month trip, and I met somebody on a boat who read something I was writing and he turned to me and he said, "Oh, this seems like a children's story." And I remember being very offended, wounded that he would think that and that he didn't understand at all, but it's because I was only just barely out of being a child myself, and I didn't understand that all of those books that I had read as a child and as a young adult had been the foundation for what I was beginning to write then and that actually writing for children, rather than being something to look down upon in any way, which I did when I was 19. I wanted to write a very serious literary novel, not that there's anything wrong with those.

And then as I wrote more and more and more, it became natural for me to write characters who were 13, 14, 15, 16. And then when I started having my own children, I started writing stories that were for younger children as well because I was reading so many of them and those characters came to mind. So, for me, it's always been the character is the key piece. And when I know the age of my character, I, kind of, unlock what type of a story it's going to be.

Mary: Okay.

Alice: Hello, St. Paul and New York. I'm enjoying these hellos from all over the world.

Mary: Yep, we have people joining. I've had people from, like, Tel Aviv. Anyway, it's super fun to see who checks in.

Alice: Cool. I've been to Tel Aviv. I liked it there.

Mary: So, you have always been writing, and you had, it seems like, pretty serious aspirations to publish. You weren't just writing for yourself.

Alice: Mm.

Mary: Or no?

Alice: No. No, no. I didn't really think about publishing after I finished university. So, I did a degree in psychology and then people kept asking me the very serious question, you know, "What are you going to do?" And all I could really think was, "Well, whatever I do, it can't get in the way of the fact I want to write every day and I want to read every day." And so I conjured up jobs that would work around that, and I realized that, while I liked writing, I wasn't very good at it and that I needed to get better. I didn't have that naturally. You know, sometimes you read people's sentences, and they're just luminous. That's not the type of writer I am. And I had to learn how to be a better writer to be able to even begin to tell the stories I wanted to tell.

So, it felt to me like the best way to do that was to do a master's degree in writing whilst working. So, I did a part-time master's degree in creative writing. And during that, part of what we had to do was, like you've done with your submission blueprint, learn how to reach out to publishers. And so that's the book I wrote during my master's degree, not my undergraduate degree. So, I wrote a book during my undergraduate degree, and then I wrote a different book during my master's degree, and that's the one I began to submit to publishers. Not successfully but that's where I began to submit.

And that's where I started to think more about sending work out, but I don't know that I ever really started thinking about writing as like... Well, suddenly it was my job. I had wanted to publish, but I had always assumed I would have to do other stuff too. And then in 2007 when I published my first YA book, "Life on the Refrigerator Door," suddenly it became clear that I didn't have to do other jobs as much anymore. I would be able to focus...like, suddenly I was a writer just because that book did so well.

Mary: Oh, that's great. So, it really was, sort of, a process of you wanted to refine your craft first, then pivot toward wanting to publish.

Alice: Yeah. And then just as a final piece in that story, "Life on the Refrigerator Door" wasn't the first book. It was the seventh book, I think, I wrote.

Mary: Seventh, wow.

Alice: Yeah.

Mary: Seven books.

Alice: And for every book I publish now, there's another book that I write as a companion that I do not publish. So, publication is not my focus.

Mary: Yeah, I'm sorry.

Alice: You've read one of them. It's just sitting there. Nobody else has seen it. Yeah, it's just the other book.

Mary: Tell me why. So, you call it a companion.

Alice: It's not a very practical process. I don't recommend it to anybody else, but for me it takes any pressure off, feeling like I'm in that second stage where I'm wondering about, you know, whether the book passes muster. And that second stage process of writing where you're really figuring out the editorial side, I, sort of, push it away by working on two books because I really don't know which is the one I'm going to edit.

Mary: That is so fascinating. I would love... Okay, so now...

Alice: I don't think I've met anybody else who does it like this.

Mary: Yeah, and you don't recommend it.

Alice: No, it's not a very...no, it's pretty slow. It means I've written loads of books. Lots of them not even one other person has seen. So, you have seen one of them. And sometimes I think those books are going to work and sometimes I go back to them later on after their companion book has been published but not often.

Mary: That is really fascinating. One of the things that I talk to people a lot about is what's next. What's the next step that you take? You have a manuscript. Should you start working on something else or should you put all of your effort into the manuscript at hand? And how do you generate new ideas and all of that? And one of the things that I tell people and that you might be a more extreme case, but I like to say, "Don't cling. Don't be precious about the thing in front of you necessarily, because you never know how it's going to play out, where it's going to go." The best, sort of, proactive position is to have multiple ideas in the pipeline, to be working on multiple projects.

Alice: Well, I think it's difficult because I think there's different types of writers. So, I think there are some writers who that type of advice would appeal to and there's probably some of you right here right now listening who would really get that and who would say, "Oh, yeah, totally. I can work on three projects at once and that speaks to me really well." And I find often writers for children and young adults suit that quite well, although not always. And then there are some writers who would be simply appalled. Like, frankly, it just couldn't ever work for them to work like that.

Mary: [crosstalk 00:12:38] sometimes that advice.

Alice: No, because it isn't ever going to be their process. They can only work on one book at a time, and that may be that they have to walk away for a few months and go back to that book or just let it tinker and play in their mind. And actually, it's not possible to work on two or three projects. And when I meet writers like that, they are I'd say overwhelmed when they meet me and hear about how I do it, because they feel like it seems like a lot of work to them to do it that way round. But to me, it's just how I write, you know? Like, you may have a particular cake recipe that appeals to you or a certain way you mow your lawn. It's just how I do it, and it's satisfying to me, but it's not necessarily the process that would work for someone else.

So, what I would really recommend is not that anybody feels too compelled to follow somebody else's process, but people start to naturally trust what their own process is. And, yes, there will be long patches where nothing happens, and that might be while you're waiting to hear back from an agent, or from a publisher, or from an editor, or while you just know something's not working with the book but you don't know how to fix it.

For me, I fill up those patches with other projects, and I like to work on two and three projects at the same time. But for another writer, that may be the time when they're fallow. And during that fallow time, things are happening, but it doesn't look like anything's happening.

Mary: Because your brain is always working on things creatively on the back burner.

Alice: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Mary: And this is why I love doing these interviews, because like you said, not everyone has the same process. And so for writers who are on the journey, sometimes it's very helpful to learn how other people do it. They either pick up something new for themselves that they can use, or they figure out, "Oh, wow, that would never work for me." But it's all grist for the mill, right? So, can you walk me through, sort of, what is the arc for you for a project? It sounds like you're a little, you know, you have a lot of elements going on, but once you get an idea, what tends to happen for you?

Alice: So, right now, I'm working on a YA book, and so I try to write a thousand or so words every day. And I think about the book a lot, and I try to keep the outline in mind. So, I might spend a bit of time every day or so focusing on not a very detailed outline but on, like, the overall arc. So, some of the stuff I talk about in the blueprints is how to create an outline and how to think about how to structure a book. Some of that for me happens not so much on the page and has to be, kind of, quietly attended to during the project. I don't know that I would recommend that also. Some people, like, particularly starting out, it can be helpful to have an outline and a shape of things.

And then at the same time, I'm reading through a middle-grade book that I think has been published next fall. Much to my surprise, they wrote to me and said, "Can you fill out the author questionnaire?" which is a really interesting thing to fill out the author questionnaire, and I can tell people about those in a minute. The author questionnaire for fall 2020. And so the book is, I guess, being published in fall 2020. And I was thinking, "Well, I'm still writing this book, so I need to probably hurry up." But the book is In the process basically where it's pretty much done, I just need to read it through one more time. So, as a second bit of work, if I have time, I would spend time reading through a chapter or two every day just as, like, a final read-through piece. So, that would be how I would be working right now. That's what I'm working on.

Now, people should know it's summer in Saskatchewan. That means summer holidays. My children have been on summer holidays for three weeks already. I don't know if any of you heard, one of them just came into the room just now. Like, it's a bit of a juggle.

Mary: One of my questions for you is about this kind of work-life balance that everybody likes to talk about. Just in practical terms. So, let's finish up on the craft. So, right now you're doing something very creative with your work in progress, and then you're doing maybe more logistical stuff, gearing up to support the book that's coming out in fall 2020. You know, finish it and then support it with the author questionnaire and all of that. You are a multi-published author, so you have books out in the world...

Alice: I'm having a little trouble hearing the question, Mary. The sound suddenly cut out. Can anyone just type the question into the question box for me because I can see the question box but I can't hear you, Mary? All your sound is just gone. No, Mary, we've lost all sound at your end. Oh, there's, kind of, trickles of it. Can you hear me? Can anyone hear me? Okay. Well, why don't one of you...while Mary figures that out, why don't you guys ask me a question in the chatbox? Anyone? Or, I can tell you when an author questionnaire is due because they're, kind of, a very tedious thing that I have to do nowadays. I'll tell you about that while I wait, see if anyone has a question.

So, an author questionnaire is a thing that the publisher sends you which you have to fill out, answering all sorts of questions about who you are and who you know in the media, if you know anybody, not that I do. And what you've published before, if you've published anything, and if you've won any awards. And what the publisher then does is uses that questionnaire to help create their online and catalog copy for you. And so catalog copy is what appears in the catalog that the publisher would put out. So, catalog copy is a short piece of text that would describe your book and a little bit maybe about you.

So, I have two questions that have come. Hi, Charlene. Hi, Leigh. Is it difficult for me to switch ages while writing? I also write most of all kidlit ages. Thank you. So, I like a lot that I have grown more comfortable and confident with the different age groups. And so it has become less difficult when I start with an idea to see which age group that idea should be for. So, when I first started out writing for more than one age group, it took me a while particularly with the younger age groups to really understand, okay, this is actually a picture book or this is a chapter book. And that has come with a lot of practice and a lot of reading.

Now, for me, it happens fairly clearly. I start to see a character. I start to have the glimmers of a question, and an idea, and maybe a title, and it becomes much easier for me to see, "Okay, this would be a book for this age group." And then I have this, kind of, other questions that happen for me that are questions like, "Okay, am I working on another book for that age group at the moment? Should I just put this in an idea box? Am I wanting to spend time on a book for that age group at the moment? Like, does it excite me or do I want to focus more on this age group?"

So, I look a little bit now in a career sense at it, too. Is this just going to be totally for fun and for me, or is this a book that's likely to be sent to my agent and to my publisher? Which would be the right publisher? So, I have a few of those questions and then I try and shut those all up because I don't find those very helpful in the writing process. And so it's difficult in a different way because suddenly I am an author who has books published. I have that kind of publication push, which is probably why I would then normally carry on with the idea but carry on with it in a this is a very fun project. It's never going to be published. I won't think about it. And so I push the age group piece out of the question, and I just see where the story goes. And then after I've written a draft, I might pull that question back in, "Okay, is it the age group I originally thought? Do I now want to take those questions of whether this is the right thing for me to work on now, the right thing for me to publish, the right thing for me to send out?" And my agent helps me with that, too.

And so the other question was about how I got an agent. I submitted to loads and loads of agents. I got lots of nos. And eventually through contacts, I met an agent in person and she took me on, which was lucky. Can we hear you now, Mary? Mm, is there a way for you to write your questions and post them for us or do other people have questions who are here?

Mary: Can you maybe hear me now?

Alicia: Oh, now I can hear you, yeah. Other people hear Mary?

Mary: Oh, perfect. Yeah. So, actually, it's perfect that somebody...it must have been the earbuds. It's perfect that somebody was asking you about the different age groups. That was definitely going to be one of my conversation pieces for you because you write picture book with the Violet and Victor series, which is illustrated by Bethany Murguia, who is actually one of my clients when I was an agent. So, when I saw you collaborating with her, I was just over the moon. I'm so happy.

Alice: Aren't they beautiful? The books are so beautiful.

Mary: The book's so beautiful.

Alice: She did such a good job, yeah.

Mary: They're gorgeous. So, you have the Violet and Victor picture book series. You have "Polly Diamond," the chapter book series that we were talking about at the very beginning. You have a lot of YA. So, what I heard you saying when I came back was you, sort of, put that question aside in terms of determining the final age group. Does the decision about age group, whether it comes early or later in the process, how does it inform the way that you write and what you keep in mind as you're working on those ideas? Because I would imagine you have to tune them toward the target age group at some point.

Alice: I think it really happens for me at the beginning. So, just as the idea is surfacing and I'm thinking, "Where does this book belong?" And then I really do keep that quiet whilst I'm really focusing on the story. You know, are these characters clear and real? I mean, there's certain conventions. You know, if you're writing a picture book, you wouldn't necessarily want to have, like, 12 characters, but if you're writing YA, that might be more possible. So, there's certain things that when I make those early decisions that come more naturally to me now because I know those conventions really well. And, again, that comes from reading a lot and knowing what's out there.

So, obviously, there's ways to break the rule, but if I know I'm likely writing a picture book, then those conventions quietly play in the background for me. So, what are the things I would be thinking about and looking for then? Like, 32 pages, less than 1,000 words. Real focus on language and rhythm and out loud. Accessibility as the book is read out loud. If I've got a chapter book, okay, my length is 6,000 to 12,000 words. I need to make sure, again, that it's character-driven but also I need to think about high action. No subplots, no extra confusions for kids. And I'm really thinking about the fact a kid is going to be reading these for the first time to themselves. Like, this is the accomplishment of a chapter book. A chapter book's whole purpose and being is to make a child feel like an accomplished reader on their own. Not that they can't be read by adults to children, but their job is really for readers who are beginning to explore books on their own.

And so all of those pieces are, in my mind, if I'm thinking about middle grade, I'm thinking about people who are finding out about the world outside of their homes. So, I'm thinking about how those kids are relating with other kids, with school, and less really about what's happening in their families and more really about what's happening in society for them. And then with YA, there's this piece about identity. You know, you're looking at who you are in the world. Like, how do you fit into the world that you have come to understand during your middle years?

So I'm thinking about what kids are going through in those phases, and what is interesting as readers, and convention, and length, and chapter length. But I'm also then stepping back from that and focusing in, "Okay, now I've thought about those things. I know what those rules are. Like, let's say I'm going to the gym and I'm going to go to play squash. What are the rules of squash? Okay, I'm now in the squash court, but I'm still going to play the game. I'm not thinking about the rules, I'm just playing the game, right?" or, "Okay, now I'm at the gym. I am going into a spin class. So, the rules of the spin class, I know what the parameters are, but I'm not thinking about that while I'm taking the spin class. I'm just in the moment." To be fair, I don't play squash or go to spin class.

So, with each of those conventions, I know the parameters. I've learned them well. I've understood them well. I've read tons of books in each age group, and then I put it all away and I just get on with playing the game. Like, I dive into the book and the story and the characters, and I just really enjoy them. And then when I go to edit the book, then those conventions rise back up in me, "Okay, whoops, I wrote way too many words," or, "Whoops. I have a whole subplot here that needs to go because this is actually a chapter book and it's not super useful." Although in the main, because I know those conventions well, those things haven't happened too badly, but I would look at it in a more, "Okay, now I'm a reader. How do I look at this book? What is working? What's not working? Where have I followed convention? Where does it step outside of what suits the age group?" And then I'm also at the same time thinking, "Okay, how does this overall story work? How do these characters work? How does this book come together?" And sometimes it doesn't like the book that you read. I just can't fix it, and that's okay. Then I move on to the next thing.

Mary: Which category, in terms of the different age categories that you write, which has been the most... I love, by the way, the breakdown that you just did of these parameters that you keep in mind for each category. Is there one that has come least easily for you? And why do you think it's challenging for you?

Alice: I don't write as much middle grade naturally, but I don't read it as much either. And so I think it's mainly that. And I probably don't read it as much because my children are just that little bit too young. So, now my son who just turned 10 yesterday, he's, sort of, skipped middle grade and gone straight to YA, so he didn't really read a lot of middle grade. He, sort of, dived straight into, like, dystopic YA. So, people may disapprove, and that's totally fine. You're entitled to your opinion, but he's actually reading stuff like The Hunger Games quite happily now and didn't really enjoy middle grade either. So, it's not something I know as well, although there's some really good middle grade that I have really enjoyed. And so because I don't tend to read it as much, it isn't naturally what I feel super happy writing.

Although with these... I guess I have two books coming out this year that are middle-grade, but they're a very specific thing. They're for a publisher called Orca here in Canada. Those of you in BC will know Orca, and they publish what are called hi-lo books. They're actually a really great place for any of you particularly Canadians who want to really work on writing for that age group. So, they're high concept but low vocabulary technically. And so they're for reluctant readers or people who are reading English as a second language who don't necessarily want to read about tiny, fluffy creatures or, you know, going to school for the first time because they've been going to school for years. They want to be able to read something that's got a high plot, and high action, and, like, characters their own age but they're not a strong reader.

So, that's the middle grade that I'm doing, and I was put in their middle-grade category. Like, the outlines and the suggestions, you have to give an outline. You have to give a very structured outline. They edit the outline, then they commission the book. And those books, I submitted and they put them in their middle-grade line rather than their YA line. They actually do YA, but they put me with their middle-grade stuff, and the books I'm writing for them are middle-grade.

Mary: I think to your point about your son reading up into YA or even adult, it is not uncommon for boys especially at this middle-grade time in their development to go up into YA, go up into adult sci-fi, fantasy, dystopian, and these sort of genre books. And so there's a big push in publishing to write for reluctant readers like you're doing with the Orca books and also to engage those boy middle-grade readers that are at this point where some boys, especially to generalize, either leave reading at this age or they go elsewhere. And so there's a big push in publishing to capture those middle-grade boy readers with maybe higher concept, higher plot, maybe a little bit more accessible vocabulary if they're reluctant to read and develop that slice of the market.

Alice: Yeah. I mean, and I do think it can be very sensible to think about the market and to look at those aspects. I don't do it myself because I don't ever really write boy characters for whatever reason, and I don't ever really... Like, I remember when I first started publishing, there's lots and lots of vampire books and I don't write about vampires. And I feel like it's okay also to be quietly happy in what you're doing whilst being realistic. Like, it may be then that what you're doing isn't right for the market right now and then you have to earn money another way too. So, I've always been capable of doing that as well. Like, I always keep myself rooted in the practical. So, you know, maybe what I'm writing is just for me and, you know, that's okay, or maybe it has somewhere where it can earn me enough for my next book in which case I don't need to do the other stuff as much.

Mary: So, in talking about keeping an eye on the market, you do a lot of reading. I always recommend reading for people... I don't understand those writers who are just like, "I don't want to pollute my imagination by reading what else is out there," but I think that our peers and the people who have come before us in the craft are the best teachers. There's so much you learn when you read actively. How do you choose? So, you say, you know, I don't really pay attention to the marketability piece. It doesn't consume your process. So, how do you choose what to read? Are you just reading whatever's good or are you being more strategic about selecting your reading list?

Alice: I choose what to read based on, like, what people tell me to read. I'm lucky to get to go into lots of schools, so kids tell me what to read. If I'm looking for a new kid's book, I go into...like, we have a very good independent bookstore here in Saskatoon. So, I look at what they are recommending. I try and read a lot of local authors. I do a thing on the TV here in Saskatoon. I actually read a lot of adult stuff as well.

So, yeah, I talk about books once a month on the TV here, so I have to be fairly aware of what's coming out and what's being published. I find Kindle singularly useless for book recommendations but nearly always I ask people what they're reading. I find that a lot of other people aren't reading it as much as I feel like I remember them reading, even 10 years ago.

I go into bookstores, and I talk to bookstore owners and get their recommendations when I'm traveling. So, just in London just last week, there's a nice independent bookstore there. So, I went and talked to the bookstore owner there and got some recommendations from him. I read the Guardian Weekly and the New Yorker and The Atlantic. I feel like The Atlantic...if it does book reviews, they don't stay in my head, but the Guardian Weekly and the New Yorker have very good book reviews. So does O Magazine, and so I always read O Magazine's book reviews, too. I always really like those. So, I go to magazines I trust to look for book reviews to see what to read.

I ask my publishers what they're reading, and I've got like... I don't know. I don't know how many publishers I have now, but I have several. I'm very lucky to be working with lots of different publishers. So, I ask them what they're reading. I'll probably ask you if anyone has recommendations. So, I try to pay attention.

And then, yeah, right now I'm reading "Circe" by Madeline Miller, who I really like. I read her "Song of Achilles" a number of years ago and was very excited to see she had a new book. So, if it's an author I really like, then I will go back to them. I'm not the sort of person who's snooty with my own reading, so I read anything and everything. I'm not like, "Oh, I should be reading something more highbrow," or, "Oh, I should be reading more children's stuff." I don't really monitor what I'm reading that way. I just read a lot like really a lot. Actually, I probably read more than anybody. I've probably met only two other people in my life who read more than me, and they're very, very smart and very interesting and seem to have retained a lot more than I do. Gosh, I could have read a book, and then two weeks later, I can't remember anything about it.

So, I don't know what's happening with me when I'm reading. I don't know that I'm holding onto it. I don't think it's making me any smarter. It doesn't seem to stick in my head, which is a bit of a shame because if it did, I would be very clever. But, no, it doesn't seem to stay at all. Sometimes I get halfway through a book and I think, "Oh, no, I have read that. I know what happens," but, no, so it doesn't stay but probably because I'm reading a bit too fast but whatever. I like it. It gives me pleasure.

Mary: Good, good. So, I did want to touch on "Polly Diamond." That is a project that you're launching a series. The first book just came out in soft cover. Can you tell us a little bit about writing a series and writing that series in particular...

Alice: Yeah, sure.

Alice: ...for those of us who might be crafting multiple storylines?

Alice: So, with "Polly Diamond," it's interesting actually the question about is it difficult to write for different age groups. Actually, "Polly Diamond," first of all, was a picture book and it was completely different. And it was an editor who read it and who said, "I feel like this should be a chapter book." And so then I went back and the book completely transformed. So, the character "Polly Diamond" in the picture book was writing to the moon about how upset she was about having a new baby brother in the house. And it was called Polly Diamond Writes to the Moon, and it didn't work for whatever reason. And so there was no magic book and there was none of that.

And then about a year later, I was working in Saskatoon Public Library as a writer in residence, and the idea came to me that Polly who I had still in my head might find a book in the library like this, that she took out, that every page was blank, and she would write in it because she liked to write. That was always sort of her characteristic, and the book would write back to her. And so from there, I started writing drafts, but it took seven years to get it into shape. And partly that was because when it was acquired by Chronicle, they said, "We would like to see this as a series. You need to change a bunch of things, because at the moment, it doesn't work as a series. It works as one book." But there's some pieces you need to put in place that make that world-building stronger.

And so that was a lot of work. And some of the stuff we had to work on was the character of the magic book. It was a bit flat before. And pulling out some of the things that were happening in the first book because it was almost like three books were happening. And spending a bit more time with each page for a reader of the age. So, the work was quite intensive.

And then the second book took maybe a year. And then the third book took six weeks because I know what to do now. Like, I know the world. So, it came through that process with Chronicle, who has been an amazing publisher and who made beautiful books with glitter.

Mary: I love Chronicle.

Alice: There's glitter on the front. I don't know if you could see.

Mary: Glitter on all of them.

Alice: Yeah, there's glitter. Even on the paperback, there's glitter. So, they really did make extraordinarily beautiful books, and they took a lot of time with me, which is not always how it goes. And I learned a lot about what to think about. And some of that knowledge is latent now, and it seems very obvious to me now, but I had to figure it out along the way, so even thinking about the names of the other characters and making sure those are readable. And, again, with Orca, with these hi-lo books, my editor will write back and she's like, "That is not a name that a reluctant reader can read." Well, that's very helpful to transfer over to chapter books.

So, Anna, the sister was called Aria for a long time, and then my children, when they were reading it out loud to me, they couldn't read the word Aria. Like, it's actually surprisingly difficult to read that series of letters when you are a reader who's just starting to read. So, even those pieces, and then looking at each word. You know, if there's a word that's difficult, how can it be introduced to a character with a character like Polly who is so confident and comfortable with language and loves to write? So, she has to be realistic in her ability with writing. And then, you know, how do you make it that the magic book causes all sorts of chaos but the book isn't too moralizing? It's still fun, but Polly still has to fix the problems she's caused, right? And she has to do that by writing.

So, all of those pieces took some time to figure out, but now I feel super happy when they say, "Okay, you need to write another one." And so they've asked for a fourth one. I don't know if it will ever end up being published, but at least I get to write it. And whether it gets published or not is based on how well the books do in the market, which I have no control over.

Mary: Got it. And so, Bev, I wanted to touch on "The Rough Patch." So, in my family, we've had a little bit of grief, and people come to me and they say, "Oh, I have a grief situation with young children." "The Rough Patch" is something I absolutely recommend.

Alice: Right. Yeah, I saw that there. Thank you, Bev. I will definitely, definitely read that with my children.

Mary: Yeah, it's an amazing book. And it looks like Bev is asking, do you give yourself deadlines when writing your books?

Alice: Not a final deadline? So, I tend to give myself, like, arbitrary rules, and I recommend people have their own rules. But my rules, if these are helpful, are reading 50 pages a day, although that's really hard with a Kindle. Now, I feel like it's...I don't know if it's 50 pages anymore, it's just a chunk of time. But 50 pages-ish a day. And then, if I'm working on a new book, I try to write about 3,000 words a week. And if I'm working on edits, I try to edit three chapters a week.

And so I used to do it by daily. You know, this is what I'd like to get done today. So, I have four children who are under the age of 10, and then I also have a 17-year-old and then she has a baby living in my house. And it isn't always possible for a day to go the way I think it's going to go, like, at all. And then my editor for "Polly Diamond" will write to me on a Friday when I have no childcare, and she'll say, "Can you do your edits by Tuesday next week?" And I'm thinking, "I can't. I'm going to be up late at night doing those." So, yeah, so I have to be, sort of, flexible. So, that's why I give myself a weekly thing.

You know, if it's got to Friday and I've got, as I said, no childcare on Fridays, and I haven't done anywhere near those things, if I've got 2,500 words done, I don't really mind. That's fine. Or if I've only done two chapters, that's fine. But if I've not done anywhere near enough, then I need to stop blocking out time in my evenings at the weekends to do my catch-up. But normally I manage because I have those buffer days. My eight-year-old daughter gets bad migraines, so those tend to throw a pebble in the works every two weeks. Much more so for her than for me, but it does mean that I can't really do anything until her migraine is better. So, there's all sorts of pieces, which all of you must understand. Lots of you I'm sure have responsibilities that you are dealing with on a day-to-day basis.

So, when it comes to deadlines, those are my kind of weekly things. And then I don't really have an overall deadline when things need to be finished. I mean, when I'm writing books, in the main, they're not commissioned. So, the non-fiction YA, "Always Smile," which I wrote which came out earlier this year, that will have deadlines and so then I had to stick to those. So, normally what I do, Bev, with deadlines is I actually give myself...if I've got a hard deadline from a publisher, I give myself a deadline of two, maybe even three weeks earlier than that and get it done, because then again, I have that buffer zone of, if people get sick in my household or if I had to deal with some sort of crisis, the book is already there and that gives me extra time to read and reflect.

So, this Orca book is due at the end of July, but I'm not like... It's done. I just have to finish this read-through. But to be honest, I could send it. If I didn't have time to do that read-through, it'll be fine. My deadline is already met. So I meet my deadlines. I give myself earlier deadlines. And then with books I'm writing, I would finish. So, the YA book right now, I would finish it. My publisher is not sitting there waiting for me to write YA. With those sorts of books, nobody really cares when I finish those, so I don't make my life hard for myself by adding in more stress, but I have a kind of loose sense, "Okay, I'll probably be finished by September, October," which is a sensible time to think about submitting because right now is not a great time for me to be submitting work but my agent would be open probably to receiving the book in September, October time. Probably as I get closer to the end, I'll write to her and say, "I will send you the book by this date." And then that will give me an arbitrary deadline.

Mary: What is that working relationship like? So, can you talk us through conversations you might have with your agent in terms of what kind of category should we aim for next? Because you're working with a number of publishers as well, so not only are you juggling projects, you're juggling different houses. How are these, kind of, big-picture steering career questions decided? And what's that process like?

Alice: Well, it's an interesting process because you have to balance the artistic side of it with the practical side of it. And so my agent used to be an editor and is quite good at saying, you know, "I think this would be something that you might want to work on." And sometimes that lights me up and I feel like working on something like that. But most of the time, it just sort of stays quiet maybe for a year or two until an idea comes along and I think, "Oh, that's the idea that works with that suggestion. Now I want to write this book." And then sometimes it's too late for market or publisher.

So, that's why I've done these commission things recently. So, I did this book, "Always Smile." I've done these two books with Orca because that, kind of, aligns with, "Okay, this is a fixed project. It's going to take this long. It's those deadlines." And yet at the same time, I can be working on the other books that are just for me that I haven't had any kind of career conversation about. I'm just enjoying them.

So, one of the books that I have being read by an editor right now is a book for adults. I don't know that that's a great career move, but it's the book I happen to write. And I love it, and I'm excited by it, and I'm hopeful that an editor wants to work with me more on it because I want to make it a better book. But in terms of my career, writing is so hard to build a career around that I think I tend to look at it book to book.

Now, I'm really lucky. My partner's a writer, and he's a successful writer. So, he is able to support me when it doesn't go well for me as a writer. I have been lucky as a writer that I have continued to publish well all the way through. I'm lucky that the publishers who've published me have been enthusiastic and they've also been, kind of, the sort of publishers who can continue to support my writing life. But then at the same time, I have always had other revenue streams, so I don't feel any sort of panic really. I mean, realistically I'm what you would call a midlist writer. Nobody's heard of me, and I am able to publish...like, I don't know how many books. I have coming up maybe four in the next year or so, two years, and that feels unbelievable to me. But there is no guarantee that I will continue to publish the year after or the year after or the year after that. Absolutely no guarantee. So, I try and keep my other skills up should I need another job.

Mary: I mean, it can sound scary and intimidating, but I really appreciate your perspective there because this midlist label that you've applied to yourself is something that a lot of writers hear about. It's something that, kind of, has maybe somewhat of a negative connotation because a lot of people talk about, "Oh, I have to get out of the midlist. I'm lost in the midlist."

Alice: I love the midlist. Sorry, I feel that with four children, the midlist is just about perfect. I get to do stuff like occasionally go on tour, which is great. and I get to mainly be home, and I get to work when I want to work. And so for me, some of my friends are extremely successful. My husband's extremely successful. And I look at their lives and what that requires, and I feel very thrilled for them. And I feel very lucky to get to read their books.

But I feel genuine delight that the books I write, people read them. Not lots of people but enough people, and the people who read them are very generous in their comments. Somebody writes to me nearly every day to say, "This book or that book has connected with me," which is a real thrill and pleasure.

But it isn't like the admin side of my life, the travel side of my life, the public engagement side is very pleasant and very manageable. Like, I can fit these things and, you know, I do an interview maybe every week. I do a public engagement maybe every month, and they're always fun, and I feel really lucky to do them. But, I mean, I look at people who are full-time, hugely successful writers, and I think it's the sort of life that is extremely suited for some people but it's not necessarily the life to aim for for everybody.

And so I feel like sometimes when we're writing our first book or our sixth book, there's that ambition to be famous and hugely successful, but there's actually a huge amount that comes with that that requires a certain person and a certain ability to live a certain life that makes people not necessarily appreciate how hard that is as well. Not that I don't think any of those people are complaining. I think they're very happy with that lifestyle, but it's a lot of work to maintain and to manage and to fit in that creative, enlivening peace whilst you're, you know, talking to 600 people every night, and touring loads, and dealing with lots of interviews, and dealing with all of this. So, I feel like midlist is underrated.

Mary: I actually love the wisdom in that perspective because you're owning the title of midlist author. You're also owning that you want to have a life and a quality of life that is suited to you. And I think one of the things that could be talked about a lot more in these types of conversations is the idea of fit. So, not everybody is going to be a fit for this goal of being a famous published author. Not every book is going to be a fit for a certain type of publishing path or a certain category. Like you say, sometimes you find the category on the journey a little bit instead of starting out with a big, huge plan to slot this as a chapter book, slot this as a picture book.

So, I think this idea of fit, I get a lot of writers who are like, "Should I publish traditionally? Should I publish independently?" And it's like, well, sometimes a different project can have a different fit or a different person can have a different personality type that's a better fit for this or that. And so what I'm really hearing from you is this perspective of, you know, "I know who I am. I've realized what kind of writer I am. I've realized how I like to write and so I, sort of, keep perspective on that. I don't hold myself to these draconian deadlines for my writing because, you know, I have a real life as well." And I think that's just really interesting to hear how you manage all of these things.

Alice: Yeah, and I think that everybody has their own answer, you know, their own resonance in that. And I can understand why some people feel deeply dissatisfied by where their writing lives are. And I get it. And I can understand why people have that ambition and that hunger to publish more, to publish bigger, to publish better. I think what I have learned is that there is some control you have over that. Your control or my control is to write the best book I can by working really hard, by reading as much as I can, by knowing what is out there in children's books. Not because that would necessarily make me more money, but because it shows a respect for my reader.

And so I think I have learned that the whole point of this is actually to respect the fact that a child, when they read a book, or a young adult when they read a book, encounters and touches wonder if you do a good job. And that's the bit that, in the most genuine way, is the only reason to do it. And if that excites me still, then I feel lucky to be able to keep doing it and be paid to do it. And if I'm looking for something else, there are certainly easier ways to do those things. You know, if I'm looking for reaching huge numbers of people or if I'm looking to be famous or to make tons of money, there are other ways to write that I think it would be not necessarily easier but that would be, you know, a sensible thing to do.

But I think writing for children and young adults, there are so many people out there who are so good, who are struggling to make enough money to be able to write their next book, that I think that it's not the way to go if that's your aim. But if your aim is to write a book that touches wonder in a child or a young adult, then, you know, make sure you can afford to get through the day and keep doing it.

And that's what I did for years and years and years and years and years, and that's what I keep doing. But I do work really, really hard. And a lot of what I do doesn't work, and doesn't meet publishers, and doesn't end up published, and doesn't end up read. And then some of what I do ends up with publishers and still doesn't end up read. And some of it is published and connected, and some of it's done well. And some of it's done really well, and some of it has...

And that still means that I, you know, have a very unsure future career, but I'm doing well enough to have more books coming out. And some of the other books haven't connected with as many readers as is needed, as determined by marketing to...for, like, Violet and Victor, they only did two. They could quite happily have done more, but the books didn't sell well enough, and so they don't commission a third. But I can't control those pieces. So, the pieces I can't control are the pieces I try to let go of.

Mary: I think that [crosstalk 00:55:38].

Alice: You're writing some lovely messages, by the way, Bev. I'm really enjoying reading your messages. Thank you very much. That's really nice to hear. That's why I do it.

Mary: So, does anybody have any questions as we, sort of, wrap up our time together? Any other questions that we haven't covered? What I'm hearing here that I really, really admire, and this is just personal glowing about Alice, our guest, is just the hard work and the dignity in which she holds the reader. I think that is just one of the most inspirational parts of writing for children because it's that connection, that idea of relating directly to that reader that might really need to hear exactly what you have to say. It is that mission, which is why I'm glad that you, Alice, ended up writing for kids instead of writing snooty literary fiction for adults like you wanted to when you were fresh out of grad school or whatever the case may have been. And that's, to me, honestly one of the things that is most exciting to me for writing for kids and young adults. One of the things that has driven me to, to this area of the market in my own life.

It looks like a lot of people are joining us for the replay. And if no questions come in down in the questions area or in the chat box, I mean, Alice, is there anything...?

Alice: Yeah, I do want to say one thing. So, I really strongly think the writing process is a two-stage process. And for me, the first part is really where I write for myself because it makes me feel good and it makes me feel calm. And other people may find that satisfaction in cooking, or in playing golf, or dance, or watching TV, like whatever their space is where they have that creative calm, right? And I'm guessing for all of you watching this, that, for you, it's writing and it gives you that peace and it gives you that solace. And that's when to turn off the ambition and to turn off the worry about which category and to turn off the sound and the noise about what your reader might feel. And actually just write for that genuine pleasure, and flow, and calm that it gives in a hectic world. Turn off your email, turn off everything, and just write.

And then the second stage of the process is when you start thinking about the reader, and touching wonder, and creating joy, and finding connection and, okay, this sentence is way too long, or, wow, this character's a mess or a trope, or how can I make this clearer and cleaner, and tighter, and better? And that's the second stage. And I would argue that all of us as writers are better at one stage than the other.

And so for those of us who were, sort of, paralyzed by the idea of putting words on the page, you're probably spending too much time in the second stage of the process. And for those of us that rush to send work out and, you know, finish and it's done, the second stage is where you need to spend time honing and thinking about your craft. And for those, again, who struggle to get words on the page, spending time where you just write without thinking at all, without that editorial voice stepping in, learning which part of the process you are stronger at, and working and honing the other side of it and appreciating where your strengths are and respecting and appreciating your own process. So, listening to how other writers do it, and hearing how they do it, and then incorporating what is useful. Testing and trying things out.

Like, my husband's a writer. He tried to do some things the way that I do them. And some of those things have been useful for him and some have not. And the same the other way around. Like, I have listened and learned as to how he does things, and learned from him, and taken on what's useful but not worried that my process isn't identical to me.

There's a question here about how I schedule interviews and public appearances and things. Social medias, do I much of that? It's easy to get overwhelmed. Yes, it is. Very easy to get overwhelmed. Yeah, I'm on social media quite a bit, and I have a newsletter, although I haven't sent it out for a while. And I have a very nice website. I tend to do those things after I've done my thousand words or my editorial pieces. So, I try and put the writing pieces first. And then if there's time, I might spend an hour or two on those bits. In the last year, I've been doing a lot of stuff with two local charities here in Saskatoon, and we have all these children, which have been a bit sudden. Like, we did have four, and now we have six. And so I have attended to those aspects less. When I'm scheduling interviews and public appearances in the main, I actually say no to the requests that I get now. But as people starting out in writing careers, when I was starting out, I couldn't say no. I had to say yes to everything, but I had fewer children, so it's easier.

It's a balance piece. I tend to say to myself, when somebody asks me to do something, would I want to do it tomorrow? And if I wouldn't want to do it tomorrow, like if I can't fit it in tomorrow, then I can't fit it in in six months' time. Like, I just turned down something for January because I realized that it was just too big of an ask for me. So, just recently I got asked to come down to Regina, which is a couple hours south to talk about productivity. How am I productive? How do I manage to get everything done? And I realized it would be like a two-and-a-half, three-hour drive. And then I would be talking to people for an hour and then it would be two and a half or three-hour drive. And I thought, well, you know, I would love to do that, but I wouldn't want to do it tomorrow because I don't have time. So, I know that when it comes up, it's just going to be too much time and it's actually going to get in the way of me doing stuff. So, I have to say no much as I would love to do that, and I'm really pleased to be asked. So, yeah, I have to say no to lots of things.

And then like anything, when you're scheduling stuff in, you know, if you've got a full-time job. So, my friend David Robertson, who's a Canadian writer, he has five children and loads of books coming out and is wildly successful. And, yeah, for him, he talks to me about this, and it's a challenge. It's a balance, you know? How much can he schedule in? How much does he have to say no to? He needs to be able to earn enough. And so, you know, going to do things where he's going to be selling copies of his books or where he's being paid to go. Like, it's hard for him to say no to those things. At the same time, he has to make sure he carves that time for his writing, and he carves out time for his five children.

And so I really connect with him when we talk about how to manage it all. And I listen to his advice and I read, you know, James Clear online. I really like his way of looking at things about how to manage time and having good habits around stuff. So, yes, it's very easy to get overwhelmed, but some of that stuff is, you know, further down on the list. So, when I get to it, I enjoy it. And when I don't get to it, I don't worry about it too much. That was a very long answer. Sorry. As you can see, it's something that I think about, and I try to manage.

Mary: No, I love that. Sorry, I had a bit of a technical issue. I think the storm is knocking out my internet a little bit. No, that's one thing that I hear a lot from writers who are on the upswing. You know, how do I manage my time? Social media can be such a time suck. Thinking about marketing can be so inundating. So, how do you juggle it? And it really can push people, especially people who are not naturally...

Alice: Well, and I think, again, like Bev is mentioning here that it's a balancing act. I, kind of, don't really believe in balance. I think you're always overbalanced one way or the other way, and that's okay. And so there was a couple years where I spent a lot of time on social media, and learning about these things, and setting up my website, and I didn't spend enough time on my writing. And it felt like I was spending too much time on it. And now I've taken Facebook off my phone, I barely check in, I haven't posted for weeks. I don't really care. So, I've gone too far the other way probably to the point where my publishers will be like, "Hello?"

So, you know, it is a balancing act. And sometimes you'll be in your life where you're really invested and learning about those things is part of the job. And sometimes you really don't want to, and you have to just turn it off and work on a new book. And thank you very much for the advice about B2. She does take magnesium, but I will look at B2, Donna. Thank you.

Mary: I think the thing that I'm really taking away from this talk today is this idea of, sort of, the long view. I think people get very wrapped up in, "What do I do now? And what do I do next?" I think listening to Alice from this kind of more holistic, career-wide lens, it's more of an ebb and flow. There are seasons for writing. There are seasons for marketing. There are seasons for thinking about audience. There are seasons for thinking creatively. There are seasons for revision. There are seasons for not writing because you're doing it yourself.

Alice: And, I mean, because I live with another writer, I have to balance it around his writing life. So, he as the writer who is more successful, I have to balance it around what works and what's useful for him. And so I know that he's about to go more into the writing part of his process, and so it's much easier for me to say no to pretty much everything because I know right now the priority in our household is that he is working on a new book. And that's not because he's a man. It's because of his seniority as a writer in terms of where he needs to be and the support he needs. But then there has been two years, over the last two years where he has been in a more research phase and so been much more available when I've needed him with the children. But I know the three years before that, it was really difficult in terms of me being able to do all the things I wanted to do because I had to prioritize our family life and looking after the children because that was where things were at and that was the age they were at.

So, that's exactly what you're saying about seasons. There's just times in life where, you know, if your kids are young or you're caring for an elderly or a sick person in your life, or something comes up that requires that that has to be the priority, it's okay that that season passes and you're not getting stuff done. But that doesn't mean that I can't be reading as much as I always read, and I can't be writing my thousand words. Even if I don't have time to do the editorial work, that would mean that book moves to publication or, you know, if you're at a stage where you're submitting, then part of every week would need to be researching where to submit and who you're sending out to. And as Mary's course talks about, what steps do you need to take for the next bit of your career?

So, I do have times where I look overall, okay, this is the next three months ahead. What are the key things I want to work son? What's going to be possible? What do I have to let go? And this is the next six months, and this is the next year. Okay, what do I need to educate myself on? And what do I want to educate myself on? And so I'm always questing to do better. And I think there's a lot that I could learn and do better.

And I'm also respectful of the fact that lots of people who are midlist like me, like, it doesn't work out. It's no guarantee. There's no guarantee that any publisher is going to buy my next book. None at all, which I'm sorry if it's depressing for those of you who look and see, "Okay, she's been published in 34 countries, she's got 10 books, 4 more books to come, and there's no guarantee she's going to get the next book published." But that's the reality of it for me.

But these books are successful. Parents' Magazine chose this one as one of their top 15 books of the year. I've just been on tour with it. There is no guarantee that anyone's publishing my next book, and that's what this is like. But it's like that for any artist. It's like that for any musician. It's like that for any contemporary dancer. It's like that for anyone who makes movies. Unless you're like stellar in terms of financial success for your publishers, then I'm just really super grateful for the fact that I get to spend time doing the thing I most love, which is writing. But I'm hoping that all of you get to do that regardless of whether you end up publishing and making any money at it. Can you make the time to do that piece? Because that piece is still the most important piece for me.

Mary: I love this because I think it will encourage the people watching and listening to take some of the pressure off and to treat themselves with a little more kindness, which we all need it, you know, and I think sometimes we are very, very hard on ourselves in this whole process. And we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. And I think this reminder from you...you know, I see you. You're so successful, multi-published, you know, star, star, stars in your eyes, that it's still...you know, you have this attitude of like, you know, I get to do what I love today. Tomorrow's never promised. [crosstalk 01:09:16] stars, stars, stars.

Alice: Yeah, that's right. That's what it feels like. My children when I walk in are just so starstruck.

Mary: Mommy, can you wipe my butt? That's where I am. That's the season of life that I'm in.

Alice: Leigh is asking if I recommend submitting to a publisher directly or waiting to find an agent first for new authors. So, it depends who you're sending to. There are publishers in Canada who I know are looking for work, and you don't need to have an agent. So, you basically have to, sort of, look at what... Sorry, I'm just getting my charger out because my computer's going to die.

So, it depends which publisher you're aiming for, and it depends what type of book you are writing. So, what I always do is I actually...although I work for Children's Book Insider, before I worked for them, I actually read them, and then it was because I read them, that I approached them to say, "I would like to work for you." And so Children's Book Insider do are very good... I'm a member still and they send out a summation of children's publishers and YA publishers and agents who are looking for work. And I'm sure there are others who do that in the States. I know that in Saskatchewan, we have the Saskatchewan Writers Guild. That is always sending out, like, call-outs for publishers and for agents. Although we don't have any agents in Saskatchewan, so it's mainly publishers and they tend to do it countrywide. In Canada, we have a list of agents and a list of publishers, and you probably have the same thing in the States, probably in Tel Aviv too. You probably have writers' groups. Hi, Tel Aviv.

So, wherever you are, there will be a place where you can locate the type of information that will let you know per publisher or per agent what they prefer. And so let's say you've written a middle-grade book and it has real commercial pull, you think. It's the sort of book that's going to connect with tons of readers, and you feel like it's going to be the sort of thing that a big publisher might really go for. Well, then you're looking for agented representation. Sorry, if I put the computer here, then it doesn't wobble. I move my hands so much when I'm talking. But let's say you've written a book that's going to connect with a smaller audience. Maybe it's a book that's for teenagers about hockey, right? And very local hockey, so Saskatchewan-based hockey. Well, then you might be looking at a Saskatchewan publisher. Then you wouldn't need an agent because you would be able to submit directly, and you would look at that publisher's submission policies, and you would see, "Oh, you can send an unsolicited submission." If you're deciding to sell publish, you don't need an agent at all. Although if your self-published books sells lots and lots and lots of copies, you might then want to reach out to an agent to say, "This book has done really well. I self-published it. These are my numbers. Here is a submission for my next book. Do you think you'd like to represent me?"

So, it's a complicated question that, like the whole social media author platform thing, it's part of the job to figure it out. And it's book by book too. So, it may be that one book isn't finding an agent, and you might want to start looking at smaller publishers or more local publishers or publishing it yourself because maybe the agent is just not seeing what you're seeing in your book. It may be that you just need to do more work and that the book isn't ready for publication. It may be that you want to reach out to a freelance editor like Mary, which I have done with books that I haven't sent to my agent. I don't send everything I write to my agent, which is the other piece. And I don't reach out to publishers around her either. I just... Oh, my coffee's gone.

Mary: The interview's over, shut it down.

Alice: It's really disappointing. I know, it sucks. So, yeah, it's a question-by-question piece, but staying abreast of what agents are looking for, which CBI is good at. But, again, this is not just a shout-out for CBI. This is just like finding a place where you trust, a resource where you trust. I just happened to know that CBI was the one I trusted. So, going to...the word is not author conventions, but the word escapes me...

Mary: Writing conferences.

Alice: ...because I've been up since 4:00 this morning.

Mary: Writing conferences.

Alice: Writing conferences. Right, going to a writing conference and thinking, "This agent is actually...I really like what they're saying," or, you know, "This publisher doesn't agents. I'm going to submit directly to them. And then if the journey goes well, then I'll connect with an agent later." So, it's a step by step process like all of it, right? So, I hope that, sort of, helped.

Mary: No, and I actually recommend a bunch of resources if you... I'll type it here. Let me just pull up... On my website, I have a page of resources for writers that I like to recommend. A lot of different websites and books that cover... I'll paste it in the chat. So, these are not clickable, but you may be able to copy and paste. So, yep, resources for writers. You can also get it from kidlit.com. I have a lot of resources that I recommend. I recommend submitting to agents and publishers that take unagented submissions simultaneously. There's very little risk that you're going to overlap, and publishing takes so long, that you, sort of, want to get out there. You can do that. It's not completely against the rules. It's just a strategy that I recommend.

I do also have the Manuscript Submission Blueprint, which covers this topic in about 10 hours of video content. Very comprehensive if you want to do a deep dive into that topic. But, yeah, I think we are over time. I've loved your [crosstalk 01:15:40].

Alice: Yep, sorry, i was very chatty.

Mary: I've loved your wisdom, Alice. Thank you so much. I'm curious. [crosstalk 01:15:48] Picture Book Summit as an online writing conference. For children's writers, WriteOnCon is also another online writing conference, so it doesn't take as many resources to travel there. There's so many online opportunities now that you can take advantage of in your pajamas, which is my criteria for doing the writing opportunity. As far as webinars coming up for me, you can join me August 3rd for a paid query webinar that does include a critique of your query letter, on August 17th for a writing irresistible voice webinar, and on September 7th for writing interiority, which is the access to character piece. So, that's mine. If you want to...

Alice: That's the one I always... Yeah, that I always find really hard.

Mary: Yeah, it's a great tool, but a lot of people don't quite know how to use it. So, we'll chat about all that. And, Alice, do you have any big things coming up for you where people can find you?

Alice: Oh, I was just going to have one last thing to say. Take it seriously. Take it seriously, that writing's important to you and make sure the people around you know to take it seriously. It may be years before it starts to sound serious in terms of what other people think. You know, it might be years and years before you get published. It could be next week. You don't know, but take it seriously regardless of what the outside world thinks of you as a writer.

Then what's coming up for me? I guess I have a book coming out in spring with Orca, which I'm excited about, called "World's Worst Parrot." I've had two books out just this May. So, one was called "Always Smile" about Carley Allison, nonfiction, and then, yeah, "Polly Diamond," Book 2. And then that's it for me. I'm just writing and looking after all the children. Yeah, thank you very much, all of you. I will say goodbye and leave, Mary, just to wrap everything up. I will mute and close off my video screen so that you can finish up.

Mary: All right, Alice, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Alice: Thank you.

Mary: Oh, my goodness. I loved it. I apologize for any kind of technical difficulties, things cutting in and out a little bit. I think my internet might have had some kind of storm impact on it. But, yes, so check out Alice's website, and thank you so much for joining me for this interview series. I'm going to continue to do interviews. And like I said, I have webinars coming up. From the Kidlit website, you can also check out the webinars and events tab. I'm going to put that link in the chat if you would like to join me again. We have query webinars coming up, voice interiority, tons of good stuff. More interviews this fall, and, again, thank you so much for spending your Saturday morning with me. If you want to watch this again, if you missed any part of it, you'll get a replay link in your email shortly. And thank you, everyone. Have a wonderful rest of your weekend. Bye.

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